From sivanmen at gmail.com  Thu May  1 03:03:33 2008
From: sivanmen at gmail.com (sivan menahem)
Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 10:03:33 +0200
Subject: [Social] cooperation develop social network (IM program)
Message-ID: <c03c4c5a0805010103l3e4c9554heccddcadca3da020@mail.gmail.com>

Hallo'



There is a new social network, www.jcomm2.com  (it will be log on at june).
Project that I have belt for specific unique communities at the world.

This social network is beside on joomla system (open source).

As the CEO of this company, I'm looking a developer for IM program that can
work with our social network (pidgin, Miranda), deiced joomla (open source).

I believe that with cooperation it's possible to give our users this kind of
advantage and comfort.

If you can help' develop/programming/advising' pleas contact me.




-- 
sivan menahem
CEO  M&N INVESTMENTS
www.jcomm2.com
MOB:+33-628770692
+972504518134
HOME:+33-954029505
add: 10 place de catalogne
75014, Paris
FRANCE
OOVOO: SIVANMEN
SKYPE:SIVAN_KTM11
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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Thu May  8 14:27:31 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:27:31 -0600
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: rel="discuss"]
Message-ID: <48235423.8020204@stpeter.im>

As posted to the atom-protocol list...

-------- Original Message --------
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:29:41 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>
To: atom-protocol at imc.org
Subject: rel="discuss"

In the Jabber community we've been looking at defining links to, say, a
chat room where a post could be discussed. Therefore we've been thinking
about defining rel="discuss". The value of such a link could point to an
XMPP-based or SIP-based groupchat room, an IRC channel, an email
discussion list, a web forum, or other such venue. Does this seem
reasonable?

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Thu May  8 14:29:02 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 13:29:02 -0600
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: Re: [Standards] XEP-0060 + "Atom over XMPP" as base
 for	Open Twitter?]
Message-ID: <4823547E.8000903@stpeter.im>

FYI. Discussion is happening on the standards at xmpp.org list...

-------- Original Message --------
Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 11:32:21 -0600
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>
To: XMPP Extension Discussion List <standards at xmpp.org>
Subject: Re: [Standards] XEP-0060 + "Atom over XMPP" as base for	Open
Twitter?

On 05/05/2008 2:07 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 05/05/2008 8:34 AM, Bob Wyman wrote:
>> In case you haven't seen it, consider reading Michael Arrington's TechCrunch
>> post calling for a decentralized Twitter.
>> (http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/05/twitter-can-be-liberated-heres-how/)
>> As noted by many of the commenters, and as should be obvious to anyone in
>> the Jabber community, the solution they are looking for is probably XMPP +
>> XEP-0060 + "Atom over XMPP".
> 
> +1. Just had a chat with Joe Hildebrand about that. I'll start working
> on a spec about it tonight. Should be pretty straightforward.

http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/microblogging.html

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From px at ns1.net  Thu May  8 22:25:17 2008
From: px at ns1.net (px)
Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 20:25:17 -0700
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: rel="discuss"]
In-Reply-To: <48235423.8020204@stpeter.im>
References: <48235423.8020204@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <4823C41D.30207@ns1.net>

That looks pretty neat.  And yet ridiculously simple.
<a rel=discuss href="irc://irc.freenode.net/chatroom">come chat with us</a>


Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> As posted to the atom-protocol list...
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Date: Thu, 08 May 2008 09:29:41 -0600
> From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>
> To: atom-protocol at imc.org
> Subject: rel="discuss"
>
> In the Jabber community we've been looking at defining links to, say, a
> chat room where a post could be discussed. Therefore we've been thinking
> about defining rel="discuss". The value of such a link could point to an
> XMPP-based or SIP-based groupchat room, an IRC channel, an email
> discussion list, a web forum, or other such venue. Does this seem
> reasonable?
>
> Peter
>
>   


From stpeter at stpeter.im  Mon May 12 09:20:49 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 08:20:49 -0600
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
Message-ID: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>

BTW, those of you who prefer web forums to old-fashioned email lists
might be happy to know that this list is now accessible via a web forum
interface:

http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Thanks to Florian Jensen for setting this up!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Mon May 12 12:34:36 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 19:34:36 +0200
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Thanks for making it a forum.


-- 
Dag
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dag's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16909
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=23


From stpeter at stpeter.im  Mon May 12 13:14:20 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:14:20 -0600
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im> <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>

On 05/12/2008 11:34 AM, JabberForum wrote:
> Thanks for making it a forum.

We AIM to please. ;-)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Mon May 12 13:22:17 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:22:17 +0200
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im> <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Peter Saint-Andre;89 Wrote: 
> On 05/12/2008 11:34 AM, JabberForum wrote:
> > Thanks for making it a forum.
> 
> We AIM to please. ;-)
> 
> Peter
> 
> -- 
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
You said it :)


-- 
florian

'Flosoft.biz' (http://www.flosoft.biz)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
florian's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=1
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=23


From stpeter at stpeter.im  Mon May 12 13:24:24 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:24:24 -0600
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
Message-ID: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im>

BTW, I had to tweak something in the Mailman admin interface so I
decided to see how many people are subscribed to this list. Turns out
there are ~250 of you. I didn't think so many people were interested in
the intersection of XMPP and social networking, but I was wrong. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From deryni at unreliablesource.net  Mon May 12 13:19:07 2008
From: deryni at unreliablesource.net (Etan Reisner)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:19:07 -0400
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im> <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>
	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <20080512181907.GV11356@aran>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 08:22:17PM +0200, JabberForum wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre;89 Wrote:
> > On 05/12/2008 11:34 AM, JabberForum wrote:
> > > Thanks for making it a forum.
<snip>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> florian's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=1
> View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=23

Would it be possible to get the poster's name put in the From header so
that we don't get silly things like an extended conversation between Forum
users showing up in an inbox as one user talking to themselves? And to
avoid the confusion involved in multiple levels of quoting, as in the
above quoted snippet in which it is impossible to tell that the first
poster was not the third poster.

	-Etan

From admin at flosoft.biz  Mon May 12 13:42:41 2008
From: admin at flosoft.biz (Florian Jensen)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:42:41 +0200
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <20080512181907.GV11356@aran>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>
	<Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran>
Message-ID: <48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>

Hi,

we wanted to use real from before, with E-mail adresses, but then we 
noticed that not every forum user is registered on this mailinglist, so 
it would defeat the idea of having the integration.

BUT: The poster's name is written at the bottom of the message. With the 
quotes, you have Peter Saint Andre wrote for example.

Greets,

Florian Jensen

From danbri at danbri.org  Mon May 12 13:53:50 2008
From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 20:53:50 +0200
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
In-Reply-To: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im>
References: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <4828923E.20900@danbri.org>

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> BTW, I had to tweak something in the Mailman admin interface so I
> decided to see how many people are subscribed to this list. Turns out
> there are ~250 of you. I didn't think so many people were interested in
> the intersection of XMPP and social networking, but I was wrong. :)

Which is as good a nudge as any to finally de-lurk. Um yup, XMPP is one 
of the quiet success stories of social networking interop. It really 
seems to have turned a corner these last few years and all that hard 
work is paying off.

I have various interests here, ... most generally, in looking for 
integration opportunities across the various 'social web' technologies 
that have recently matured. In the FOAF project for example, we're 
interested in use of XMPP for representing groups, buddylists, and 
sharing of user profiles. More generally I've been hacking around with 
the use of XMPP as a data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter 
well knows, being my XMPP helpline). Some notes on that at [1]. I'm also 
interested in ways of describing XMPP group chats in ways that make them 
more findable, so the recent work on using HTML 'link' for autodiscovery 
is rather promising.

Also I'd like to note that at both Social Graph Foo Camp a couple months 
ago, and at XTech in Dublin last week, a good few people noted "oh, I 
didn't realise how important XMPP was before seeing these talks".

cheers,

Dan


[1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Mon May 12 13:58:38 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 12:58:38 -0600
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>	<Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran>
	<48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
Message-ID: <4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>

On 05/12/2008 12:42 PM, Florian Jensen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> we wanted to use real from before, with E-mail adresses, but then we
> noticed that not every forum user is registered on this mailinglist, so
> it would defeat the idea of having the integration.

Well, we could force every forum user to be subscribed -- at that point,
the forum is simply an alternative interface to the list.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From admin at flosoft.biz  Mon May 12 14:02:19 2008
From: admin at flosoft.biz (Florian Jensen)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 21:02:19 +0200
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>	<Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran>	<48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
	<4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <4828943B.4040901@flosoft.biz>

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Well, we could force every forum user to be subscribed -- at that point,
> the forum is simply an alternative interface to the list.
>
> Peter
>
Well, thats a bit complicated. I'll try to get the From: name sorted out.

Florian Jensen

From deryni at unreliablesource.net  Mon May 12 13:50:51 2008
From: deryni at unreliablesource.net (Etan Reisner)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 14:50:51 -0400
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im> <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>
	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran> <48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
	<4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <20080512185051.GX11356@aran>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:58:38PM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
<snip>
> Well, we could force every forum user to be subscribed -- at that point,
> the forum is simply an alternative interface to the list.
>
> Peter

I don't think forcing people to receive mail to use the forum interface is
a good idea, especially not if simply using the forum interface
automagically signs them up for the mailing list.

I really just want to be able to track threads the way I normally can and
would like to avoid snipped conversations from getting incredibly
confusing as to who said what bit of quoted text.

	-Etan

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Mon May 12 14:24:55 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:24:55 -0600
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <20080512185051.GX11356@aran>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>
	<Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran>
	<48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>	<4828935E.4010805@stpeter.im>
	<20080512185051.GX11356@aran>
Message-ID: <48289987.6020907@stpeter.im>

On 05/12/2008 12:50 PM, Etan Reisner wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:58:38PM -0600, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> <snip>
>> Well, we could force every forum user to be subscribed -- at that point,
>> the forum is simply an alternative interface to the list.
>>
>> Peter
> 
> I don't think forcing people to receive mail to use the forum interface is
> a good idea, especially not if simply using the forum interface
> automagically signs them up for the mailing list.

You don't need to receive mail, you just need to be subscribed (since
you can set your mailman prefs to "nomail"). That's what we currently do
via Gmane.

> I really just want to be able to track threads the way I normally can and
> would like to avoid snipped conversations from getting incredibly
> confusing as to who said what bit of quoted text.

Yes, that seems suboptimal.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From remko at el-tramo.be  Mon May 12 15:23:36 2008
From: remko at el-tramo.be (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Remko_Tron=E7on?=)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 13:23:36 -0700
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im> <Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im> <florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran> <48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
Message-ID: <133fd4c60805121323i7ba00703t990b5e378bec3b9c@mail.gmail.com>

>  we wanted to use real from before, with E-mail adresses, but then we
> noticed that not every forum user is registered on this mailinglist, so it
> would defeat the idea of having the integration.

So, what's wrong with putting the real name in the from, and using the
jabberforum mail address as address? Like
   "Remko Tron?on <list-social at jabberforum.org>"

cheers,
Remko

From nick at iss.im  Mon May 12 15:42:56 2008
From: nick at iss.im (Nick Vidal)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 17:42:56 -0300
Subject: [Social] Syndicated Search
Message-ID: <26ff4d2a0805121342t6af24584n850d90f679973b27@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dan,

Really interesting work you got! I read about it a while back and wanted to
get in touch with you to discuss some ideas I have about searching. I have
already discussed it privately with a few friends but I think it would be
nice to have some feedback from this list. It's half-baked, but this is what
I have in mind:

I've been working on ISS (Instant Syndicating Standards) <http://iss.im/>.
It was part of Google's Summer of Code in 2006 and I had great help from the
XSF and the Psi Community. The key concepts are:

a) we have a format that associates each individual with their own
broadcasting channels (called *tagcloud*);
b) and a format that describes how these channels are connected through a
trusted network of people (called *taglink*).

The next step that I'm exploring to include in ISS is Search. This is the
basic workflow:

a) each individual generates a social graph beforehand consulting the
cascading taglinks;
b) a query can be sent to friends up to *x* degrees apart, where *x* is
define by the user;
c) this query is published on the users' *searched* node with an ID;
d) each query has a TTL (e.g. TTL = 1 month);
e) friends may accept the query and see if they have entries that match. If
so, they send the IDs of the matched entries and publish that to their *
matched* node. The query is kept until the TTL expires or according to the
policies.
f) users receive the matched entries in their aggregator. These appear
associated with the original query and separated from the main flow of the
aggregator.

The idea is to have a *syndicated search* that is totally decentralized and
served by friends (and friends of friends) for an extended period of time.

I still need to work on it to cover more specific details, but feedback is
welcome.

Best regards,
Nick Vidal

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Dan Brickley <danbri at danbri.org> wrote:

> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>
> > BTW, I had to tweak something in the Mailman admin interface so I
> > decided to see how many people are subscribed to this list. Turns out
> > there are ~250 of you. I didn't think so many people were interested in
> > the intersection of XMPP and social networking, but I was wrong. :)
> >
>
> Which is as good a nudge as any to finally de-lurk. Um yup, XMPP is one of
> the quiet success stories of social networking interop. It really seems to
> have turned a corner these last few years and all that hard work is paying
> off.
>
> I have various interests here, ... most generally, in looking for
> integration opportunities across the various 'social web' technologies that
> have recently matured. In the FOAF project for example, we're interested in
> use of XMPP for representing groups, buddylists, and sharing of user
> profiles. More generally I've been hacking around with the use of XMPP as a
> data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter well knows, being my XMPP
> helpline). Some notes on that at [1]. I'm also interested in ways of
> describing XMPP group chats in ways that make them more findable, so the
> recent work on using HTML 'link' for autodiscovery is rather promising.
>
> Also I'd like to note that at both Social Graph Foo Camp a couple months
> ago, and at XTech in Dublin last week, a good few people noted "oh, I didn't
> realise how important XMPP was before seeing these talks".
>
> cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
> [1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278
>
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From admin at flosoft.biz  Mon May 12 15:48:12 2008
From: admin at flosoft.biz (Florian Jensen)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 22:48:12 +0200
Subject: [Social] administrivia: web forum interface
In-Reply-To: <133fd4c60805121323i7ba00703t990b5e378bec3b9c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48285241.7020908@stpeter.im>
	<Dag.39b5wc@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<482888FC.6080805@stpeter.im>
	<florian.39b84b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<20080512181907.GV11356@aran>
	<48288FA1.4030400@flosoft.biz>
	<133fd4c60805121323i7ba00703t990b5e378bec3b9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4828AD0C.9040902@flosoft.biz>

That would be the perfect solution. But the Gateway we use, doesn't 
offer this option (officially). So I am browsing the board for the 
username variable, but no luck yet.

Greets,

Florian Jensen

Remko Tron?on wrote:
>>   we wanted to use real from before, with E-mail adresses, but then we
>> noticed that not every forum user is registered on this mailinglist, so it
>> would defeat the idea of having the integration.
>
> So, what's wrong with putting the real name in the from, and using the
> jabberforum mail address as address? Like
>     "Remko Tron?on<list-social at jabberforum.org>"
>
> cheers,
> Remko

From bob at wyman.us  Mon May 12 17:25:55 2008
From: bob at wyman.us (Bob Wyman)
Date: Mon, 12 May 2008 18:25:55 -0400
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
Message-ID: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>

Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from
kael<http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>
:
See:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml

If you send your last.fm username to the BBC over XMPP, they will read your
last.fm profile and then send you an XMPP message whenever they are playing
a song by an artist you like.

bob wyman
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From sh at defuze.org  Tue May 13 09:14:58 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:14:58 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40881.195.101.247.164.1210688098.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>


> Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from
> kael<http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>
> :
> See:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
>
> If you send your last.fm username to the BBC over XMPP, they will read
> your
> last.fm profile and then send you an XMPP message whenever they are
> playing
> a song by an artist you like.
>
> bob wyman
>

That's sweet. Sad the email address bounces back and even sadder that I'm
not registered to the BBC website :)

Very fun idea anyway.

-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From ben at links.org  Tue May 13 09:19:10 2008
From: ben at links.org (Ben Laurie)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:19:10 +0100
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <40881.195.101.247.164.1210688098.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<40881.195.101.247.164.1210688098.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
Message-ID: <4829A35E.1050303@links.org>

Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>> Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from
>> kael<http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>
>> :
>> See:
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
>>
>> If you send your last.fm username to the BBC over XMPP, they will read
>> your
>> last.fm profile and then send you an XMPP message whenever they are
>> playing
>> a song by an artist you like.
>>
>> bob wyman
>>
> 
> That's sweet. Sad the email address bounces back

LOL!

That'll be a jabber ID, not an email address.

> and even sadder that I'm
> not registered to the BBC website :)
> 
> Very fun idea anyway.
> 


-- 
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html           http://www.links.org/

"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff

From sh at defuze.org  Tue May 13 09:23:38 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:23:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <4829A35E.1050303@links.org>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<40881.195.101.247.164.1210688098.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
	<4829A35E.1050303@links.org>
Message-ID: <44789.195.101.247.164.1210688618.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>


> Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>>> Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from
>>> kael<http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>
>>> :
>>> See:
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
>>>
>>> If you send your last.fm username to the BBC over XMPP, they will read
>>> your
>>> last.fm profile and then send you an XMPP message whenever they are
>>> playing
>>> a song by an artist you like.
>>>
>>> bob wyman
>>>
>>
>> That's sweet. Sad the email address bounces back
>
> LOL!
>
> That'll be a jabber ID, not an email address.
>

Now see. You'd think I would have thought about that given the context.

/me looks for a place to hide.

sigh
- Sylvain

From bear42 at gmail.com  Tue May 13 13:01:35 2008
From: bear42 at gmail.com (bear)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:01:35 -0400
Subject: [Social] Question Is this a reasonable idea?
In-Reply-To: <cd1effd50804291439h75e3d031uca479bbfdd2ccd1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd1effd50804291439h75e3d031uca479bbfdd2ccd1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f6c154a30805131101g60d3c6b9h908cc646673d39c6@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Don Smith <dcsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> From what I can tell there are a few things that jabber could do to
>  make decentralized social networking a reality.
>  1. It appears I can do some sort of broadcast, if I had a client that
>  would agregate these into a newsfeed I believe it'd be the same as the
>  facebook newsfeed.

This appears to me to be nothing more than an simple html+atom module
that consumes a personal PubSub endpoint.

>  2. It appears I can publish data to a jabber server and have other
>  people browse it. This could be used for interests/descriptions, etc.
>  All the stuff social networking does. Now if contacts could be given
>  different levels of access control then the same account could be used
>  for a wide variety of people leading to point 3.

Yes, some form of OAuth to enable ACL to the various PubSub nodes that
represent your information is definitely required.


-- 
---
Bear

bear at seesmic.com (work)
bear at code-bear.com (jabber & email)
http://code-bear.com/bearlog (weblog)

PGP Fingerprint = 9996 719F 973D B11B E111 D770 9331 E822 40B3 CD29

From petersonmaxx at googlemail.com  Tue May 13 13:19:26 2008
From: petersonmaxx at googlemail.com (M. Peterson)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 20:19:26 +0200
Subject: [Social] Question Is this a reasonable idea?
In-Reply-To: <cd1effd50804291439h75e3d031uca479bbfdd2ccd1d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd1effd50804291439h75e3d031uca479bbfdd2ccd1d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bccbc6690805131119g4fddca4ifb2e7a04d27838f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi DCSmith,

that is already done in so called "J2" : http://retroshare.sf.net
it is serverless instant messaging and a web of trust, so a social network.
see a screenshot here:
http://offsystem.sourceforge.net/retroshare_network.png
The jabber servers could come into the frame for the profil search, you can
make a profil, which is sent to a ring of servers, like the pgp servers they
are always synchron updating (or use a DHT) and you can search for profiles
(e.g. friends in the same city for the same school), get the pgp key and
connect over retroshare messenger, which uses pgp keys for serverless
decentral instant messaging.

Max

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Don Smith <dcsmith at gmail.com> wrote:

> From what I can tell there are a few things that jabber could do to
> make decentralized social networking a reality.
> 1. It appears I can do some sort of broadcast, if I had a client that
> would agregate these into a newsfeed I believe it'd be the same as the
> facebook newsfeed.
> 2. It appears I can publish data to a jabber server and have other
> people browse it. This could be used for interests/descriptions, etc.
> All the stuff social networking does. Now if contacts could be given
> different levels of access control then the same account could be used
> for a wide variety of people leading to point 3.
> 3. To be on a social network one would add a special buddy or service
> that would be permitted to index either the published data, or hashes
> of the public data (The hashes would prevent a server from data mining
> easily.) You could then search the directory and ask to add someone as
> a contact.
>
> I believe the above three items in effect replecate facebook client side.
> Thoughts? Questions? ideas?
>
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From sh at defuze.org  Tue May 13 15:59:41 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:59:41 +0200
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482A013D.7080303@defuze.org>

Bob Wyman a ?crit :
> Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from kael 
> <http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>:
> See: 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
> 
> If you send your last.fm <http://last.fm> username to the BBC over XMPP, 
> they will read your last.fm <http://last.fm> profile and then send you 
> an XMPP message whenever they are playing a song by an artist you like.
> 
> bob wyman
> 

I had great fun this evening with that service:
http://www.defuze.org/archives/16-XMPP,-AtomPub,-headstock,-amplee-and-the-BBC.html

- Sylvain

From bob at wyman.us  Tue May 13 16:21:15 2008
From: bob at wyman.us (Bob Wyman)
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:21:15 -0400
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <482A013D.7080303@defuze.org>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<482A013D.7080303@defuze.org>
Message-ID: <45be5cd40805131421w3cb73d5je7f74d22e6980c4a@mail.gmail.com>

Sylvain,
This is really wonderful and it should demonstrate, very convincingly, that
Atom and XMPP are exceptionally complimentary partners.

We used Atom and XMPP together in much the same way with the old PubSub.com
(which was either the first or second XEP-0060 implementation. I think
Ralphm's implementation might have been first.)

bob wyman

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh at defuze.org> wrote:

> Bob Wyman a ?crit :
>
> > Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from kael <
> > http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>:
> > See:
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
> >
> > If you send your last.fm <http://last.fm> username to the BBC over XMPP,
> > they will read your last.fm <http://last.fm> profile and then send you
> > an XMPP message whenever they are playing a song by an artist you like.
> >
> > bob wyman
> >
> >
> I had great fun this evening with that service:
>
> http://www.defuze.org/archives/16-XMPP,-AtomPub,-headstock,-amplee-and-the-BBC.html
>
> - Sylvain
>
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From sh at defuze.org  Wed May 14 02:18:15 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 09:18:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40805131421w3cb73d5je7f74d22e6980c4a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<482A013D.7080303@defuze.org>
	<45be5cd40805131421w3cb73d5je7f74d22e6980c4a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39113.195.101.247.164.1210749495.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>

Thanks Bob.

Atom and XMPP are indeed very complimentary and I believe it comes down to
the adaptability of the format. Atom is very neutral envelop with minimal
burden whilst having great extensibility.

I will continue to extend the demo and i will see if I can make it public
so that it's easier to play with it (need to look into security
considerations).

- Sylvain

> Sylvain,
> This is really wonderful and it should demonstrate, very convincingly,
> that
> Atom and XMPP are exceptionally complimentary partners.
>
> We used Atom and XMPP together in much the same way with the old
> PubSub.com
> (which was either the first or second XEP-0060 implementation. I think
> Ralphm's implementation might have been first.)
>
> bob wyman
>
> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh at defuze.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Bob Wyman a ?crit :
>>
>> > Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from kael <
>> > http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>:
>> > See:
>> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
>> >
>> > If you send your last.fm <http://last.fm> username to the BBC over
>> XMPP,
>> > they will read your last.fm <http://last.fm> profile and then send you
>> > an XMPP message whenever they are playing a song by an artist you
>> like.
>> >
>> > bob wyman
>> >
>> >
>> I had great fun this evening with that service:
>>
>> http://www.defuze.org/archives/16-XMPP,-AtomPub,-headstock,-amplee-and-the-BBC.html
>>
>> - Sylvain
>>
>


-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From chris.messina at gmail.com  Wed May 14 09:53:39 2008
From: chris.messina at gmail.com (Chris Messina)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 07:53:39 -0700
Subject: [Social] BBC, XMPP and last.fm
In-Reply-To: <39113.195.101.247.164.1210749495.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
References: <45be5cd40805121525r31419e3eye90e4cf2ec49bef9@mail.gmail.com>
	<482A013D.7080303@defuze.org>
	<45be5cd40805131421w3cb73d5je7f74d22e6980c4a@mail.gmail.com>
	<39113.195.101.247.164.1210749495.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
Message-ID: <1bc4603e0805140753x1e422adan84b955472bc2a587@mail.gmail.com>

This is definitely cool to see -- especially as we're looking for more and
more use cases of blending ATOM and XMPP, or handing off from one to the
other, with DiSo (http://diso-project.org).
Very cool!

Chris

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:18 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh at defuze.org>
wrote:

> Thanks Bob.
>
> Atom and XMPP are indeed very complimentary and I believe it comes down to
> the adaptability of the format. Atom is very neutral envelop with minimal
> burden whilst having great extensibility.
>
> I will continue to extend the demo and i will see if I can make it public
> so that it's easier to play with it (need to look into security
> considerations).
>
> - Sylvain
>
> > Sylvain,
> > This is really wonderful and it should demonstrate, very convincingly,
> > that
> > Atom and XMPP are exceptionally complimentary partners.
> >
> > We used Atom and XMPP together in much the same way with the old
> > PubSub.com
> > (which was either the first or second XEP-0060 implementation. I think
> > Ralphm's implementation might have been first.)
> >
> > bob wyman
> >
> > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Sylvain Hellegouarch <sh at defuze.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Bob Wyman a ?crit :
> >>
> >> > Here's news of a cool use of XMPP via a tweet from kael <
> >> > http://twitter.com/kael/statuses/804797351>:
> >> > See:
> >> >
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/05/were_playing_your_song_persona.shtml
> >> >
> >> > If you send your last.fm <http://last.fm> username to the BBC over
> >> XMPP,
> >> > they will read your last.fm <http://last.fm> profile and then send
> you
> >> > an XMPP message whenever they are playing a song by an artist you
> >> like.
> >> >
> >> > bob wyman
> >> >
> >> >
> >> I had great fun this evening with that service:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.defuze.org/archives/16-XMPP,-AtomPub,-headstock,-amplee-and-the-BBC.html
> >>
> >> - Sylvain
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> Sylvain Hellegouarch
> http://www.defuze.org
>



-- 
Chris Messina
Citizen-Participant &
Open Source Advocate-at-Large
factoryjoe.com # citizenagency.com # diso-project.org
This email is: [ ] bloggable [X] ask first [ ] private
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From nick at iss.im  Wed May 14 10:47:08 2008
From: nick at iss.im (Nick Vidal)
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:47:08 -0300
Subject: [Social] Syndicated Search
In-Reply-To: <26ff4d2a0805121342t6af24584n850d90f679973b27@mail.gmail.com>
References: <26ff4d2a0805121342t6af24584n850d90f679973b27@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26ff4d2a0805140847i2d4b0d9hbe8a97f1abeadd01@mail.gmail.com>

Some further reading:

Designing Semantic Publish/Subscribe Networks using
Super-Peers<http://www.kbs.uni-hannover.de/Arbeiten/Publikationen/2005/chirita04designing.pdf>
Chirita, Paul-Alexandru  and  Idreos, Stratos  and  Koubarakis, Manolis
and  Nejdl, Wolfgang

My notes available here:
http://iss.im/node/93

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Nick Vidal <nick at iss.im> wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> Really interesting work you got! I read about it a while back and wanted to
> get in touch with you to discuss some ideas I have about searching. I have
> already discussed it privately with a few friends but I think it would be
> nice to have some feedback from this list. It's half-baked, but this is what
> I have in mind:
>
> I've been working on ISS (Instant Syndicating Standards) <http://iss.im/>.
> It was part of Google's Summer of Code in 2006 and I had great help from the
> XSF and the Psi Community. The key concepts are:
>
> a) we have a format that associates each individual with their own
> broadcasting channels (called *tagcloud*);
> b) and a format that describes how these channels are connected through a
> trusted network of people (called *taglink*).
>
> The next step that I'm exploring to include in ISS is Search. This is the
> basic workflow:
>
> a) each individual generates a social graph beforehand consulting the
> cascading taglinks;
> b) a query can be sent to friends up to *x* degrees apart, where *x* is
> define by the user;
> c) this query is published on the users' *searched* node with an ID;
> d) each query has a TTL (e.g. TTL = 1 month);
> e) friends may accept the query and see if they have entries that match. If
> so, they send the IDs of the matched entries and publish that to their *
> matched* node. The query is kept until the TTL expires or according to the
> policies.
> f) users receive the matched entries in their aggregator. These appear
> associated with the original query and separated from the main flow of the
> aggregator.
>
> The idea is to have a *syndicated search* that is totally decentralized
> and served by friends (and friends of friends) for an extended period of
> time.
>
> I still need to work on it to cover more specific details, but feedback is
> welcome.
>
> Best regards,
> Nick Vidal
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Dan Brickley <danbri at danbri.org> wrote:
>
>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>>> BTW, I had to tweak something in the Mailman admin interface so I
>>> decided to see how many people are subscribed to this list. Turns out
>>> there are ~250 of you. I didn't think so many people were interested in
>>> the intersection of XMPP and social networking, but I was wrong. :)
>>>
>>
>> Which is as good a nudge as any to finally de-lurk. Um yup, XMPP is one of
>> the quiet success stories of social networking interop. It really seems to
>> have turned a corner these last few years and all that hard work is paying
>> off.
>>
>> I have various interests here, ... most generally, in looking for
>> integration opportunities across the various 'social web' technologies that
>> have recently matured. In the FOAF project for example, we're interested in
>> use of XMPP for representing groups, buddylists, and sharing of user
>> profiles. More generally I've been hacking around with the use of XMPP as a
>> data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter well knows, being my XMPP
>> helpline). Some notes on that at [1]. I'm also interested in ways of
>> describing XMPP group chats in ways that make them more findable, so the
>> recent work on using HTML 'link' for autodiscovery is rather promising.
>>
>> Also I'd like to note that at both Social Graph Foo Camp a couple months
>> ago, and at XTech in Dublin last week, a good few people noted "oh, I didn't
>> realise how important XMPP was before seeing these talks".
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> [1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278
>>
>
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From tmarkmann at googlemail.com  Thu May 15 07:38:21 2008
From: tmarkmann at googlemail.com (Tobias Markmann)
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:38:21 +0200
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
In-Reply-To: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im>
References: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <5cfc0a8e0805150538l33c7a780gee40904ae417073e@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>
wrote:

> BTW, I had to tweak something in the Mailman admin interface so I
> decided to see how many people are subscribed to this list. Turns out
> there are ~250 of you. I didn't think so many people were interested in
> the intersection of XMPP and social networking, but I was wrong. :)
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
I'm mostly observing recent development and discussions. :)

Tobias
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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Mon May 19 04:25:05 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 11:25:05 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
Message-ID: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


I think this kind of feature has already been discussed mixed with other
topics. But I wanted to discuss it here.

Currently you can configure your subscription (theoritically in the XEP
at least) very basically. Like "I want to receive the whole items,
nothing, the whole body or only an excerpt, etc.). But if you want to
have advanced configuration, you could "play" with subnodes, but this is
very limited. A tag and category system would be advantageous.

Let me give the examples I was dealing with when I thought about this
all. First a blog with pubsub as I am writing a Wordpress plugin:
currently my plugin enables only to subscribe to all the posts, or all
the comments, or the comments of a given post (or absolutely everything
of course). For this, I made a global container node (let's call it G).
In this one, I have 2 subnodes:
- a leaf node with all the posts (P);
- a container node for comments (C), with inside leaf nodes for each
posts (P1, P2, etc.).

So if I want to subscribe to everything, I subscribe to G, G/P for only
posts, G/C for all comments, and for instance G/C/P3 for all comments of
post 3 (these are not really the node names I chose of course).

Imagine you want to provide a way to subscribe only to some categories.
For instance I like the blog posts of a guy about philosophy, but I
don't care when he speaks about nuclear physics because I don't
understand at all what he writes. Of course you could "emulate"
categories with subnodes once again; but then when a post belongs to
several categories, it will be copied to several nodes (and when
modified, don't forget to sync all "copies"); moreover if you subscribe
to both categories, you will receive the same publication several
times.
So the (or at least one) solution would be that all posts are in the
same nodes, but they can be categorized. So a subscriber subscribes to
the P node, then configure which categories interest him. And then the
"decision" to notify a subscriber will be done at server side. Each time
a new publication is done, the server will send it to any person whose
configuration agrees.

This can be done with categories, with tags, but also with authors (on
multi-author blogs), etc. In fact the better system would allow
flexibility.

You will do such configuration through your Jabber client, but also my
blog can generate such link:
xmpp:pubsub.zemarmot.net?action=subscribe;node=home/zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts;categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en

If I click this link, my Jabber client will propose me to subscribe to
the given node and configure it to receive only posts categorized under
"Jabber" and "Linux", and tagged as "en" (because I would not speak any
other language).

Another instance: I was thinking about a real estate website where I
subscribe to receive emails when they got a garage close to my
appartment and under a given price. Why couldn't such configuration be
available on a pubsub node which contains items to sell. And you
configure your subscription to be notified only about items which
interest you (under some price for instance, and in some category).

What do you think of it?


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95


From bob at wyman.us  Mon May 19 16:35:03 2008
From: bob at wyman.us (Bob Wyman)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 17:35:03 -0400
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Jehan wrote:
> I was thinking about a real estate website where I
> subscribe to receive emails when they got a
> garage close to my apartment and under
> a given price.
If you were using XEP-0060 wouldn't you just do this by adding something
like a "query-string" field to the node configuration form? See possible
stanza below:

<iq type="set" to="xmpp.example.com" id="sub1">
  <pubsub xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub">
    <subscribe
        node="real-estate"
        jid="foo at example.com">
    <options>
      <x xmlns="jabber:x:data" type="submit">
        <field var="FORM_TYPE" type="hidden">
          <value>http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#subscribe_options</value>
        </field>
*        <field var="title">
          <value>Possible Garage</value>
        </field>
        <field var="query-string">
          <value><![CDATA[ (price .lt. $500) & (size .eq. large)]></value>
        </field>
** *     </x>
      </options>
    </subscribe>
  </pubsub>
</iq>

bob wyman

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, JabberForum <list-social at jabberforum.org>
wrote:

>
> I think this kind of feature has already been discussed mixed with other
> topics. But I wanted to discuss it here.
>
> Currently you can configure your subscription (theoritically in the XEP
> at least) very basically. Like "I want to receive the whole items,
> nothing, the whole body or only an excerpt, etc.). But if you want to
> have advanced configuration, you could "play" with subnodes, but this is
> very limited. A tag and category system would be advantageous.
>
> Let me give the examples I was dealing with when I thought about this
> all. First a blog with pubsub as I am writing a Wordpress plugin:
> currently my plugin enables only to subscribe to all the posts, or all
> the comments, or the comments of a given post (or absolutely everything
> of course). For this, I made a global container node (let's call it G).
> In this one, I have 2 subnodes:
> - a leaf node with all the posts (P);
> - a container node for comments (C), with inside leaf nodes for each
> posts (P1, P2, etc.).
>
> So if I want to subscribe to everything, I subscribe to G, G/P for only
> posts, G/C for all comments, and for instance G/C/P3 for all comments of
> post 3 (these are not really the node names I chose of course).
>
> Imagine you want to provide a way to subscribe only to some categories.
> For instance I like the blog posts of a guy about philosophy, but I
> don't care when he speaks about nuclear physics because I don't
> understand at all what he writes. Of course you could "emulate"
> categories with subnodes once again; but then when a post belongs to
> several categories, it will be copied to several nodes (and when
> modified, don't forget to sync all "copies"); moreover if you subscribe
> to both categories, you will receive the same publication several
> times.
> So the (or at least one) solution would be that all posts are in the
> same nodes, but they can be categorized. So a subscriber subscribes to
> the P node, then configure which categories interest him. And then the
> "decision" to notify a subscriber will be done at server side. Each time
> a new publication is done, the server will send it to any person whose
> configuration agrees.
>
> This can be done with categories, with tags, but also with authors (on
> multi-author blogs), etc. In fact the better system would allow
> flexibility.
>
> You will do such configuration through your Jabber client, but also my
> blog can generate such link:
> xmpp:
> pubsub.zemarmot.net?action=subscribe;node=home/zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts;categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
>
> If I click this link, my Jabber client will propose me to subscribe to
> the given node and configure it to receive only posts categorized under
> "Jabber" and "Linux", and tagged as "en" (because I would not speak any
> other language).
>
> Another instance: I was thinking about a real estate website where I
> subscribe to receive emails when they got a garage close to my
> appartment and under a given price. Why couldn't such configuration be
> available on a pubsub node which contains items to sell. And you
> configure your subscription to be notified only about items which
> interest you (under some price for instance, and in some category).
>
> What do you think of it?
>
>
> --
> Jehan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
> View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From romeda at gmail.com  Mon May 19 18:17:35 2008
From: romeda at gmail.com (Blaine Cook)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:17:35 -0700
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>

I'm a big fan of pubsub nodes that correspond to functioning URLs, e.g.,

if your blog has a view:

http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en

that shows only Jabber or Linux posts in English, then the
corresponding pubsub node would be (wait for it!):

http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en

(i.e., they're the same). I think it's informative that HTTP doesn't
have a formalized syntax for specifying query parameters beyond the
URL string (POST bodies are a different matter, but the *vast*
majority of use is identical to normal query string parameters).

b.

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Bob Wyman <bob at wyman.us> wrote:
> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Jehan wrote:
>> I was thinking about a real estate website where I
>> subscribe to receive emails when they got a
>> garage close to my apartment and under
>> a given price.
> If you were using XEP-0060 wouldn't you just do this by adding something
> like a "query-string" field to the node configuration form? See possible
> stanza below:
>
> <iq type="set" to="xmpp.example.com" id="sub1">
>   <pubsub xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub">
>     <subscribe
>         node="real-estate"
>         jid="foo at example.com">
>     <options>
>       <x xmlns="jabber:x:data" type="submit">
>         <field var="FORM_TYPE" type="hidden">
>           <value>http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#subscribe_options</value>
>         </field>
>         <field var="title">
>           <value>Possible Garage</value>
>         </field>
>         <field var="query-string">
>           <value><![CDATA[ (price .lt. $500) & (size .eq. large)]></value>
>         </field>
>       </x>
>       </options>
>     </subscribe>
>   </pubsub>
> </iq>
>
> bob wyman
>
> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, JabberForum <list-social at jabberforum.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> I think this kind of feature has already been discussed mixed with other
>> topics. But I wanted to discuss it here.
>>
>> Currently you can configure your subscription (theoritically in the XEP
>> at least) very basically. Like "I want to receive the whole items,
>> nothing, the whole body or only an excerpt, etc.). But if you want to
>> have advanced configuration, you could "play" with subnodes, but this is
>> very limited. A tag and category system would be advantageous.
>>
>> Let me give the examples I was dealing with when I thought about this
>> all. First a blog with pubsub as I am writing a Wordpress plugin:
>> currently my plugin enables only to subscribe to all the posts, or all
>> the comments, or the comments of a given post (or absolutely everything
>> of course). For this, I made a global container node (let's call it G).
>> In this one, I have 2 subnodes:
>> - a leaf node with all the posts (P);
>> - a container node for comments (C), with inside leaf nodes for each
>> posts (P1, P2, etc.).
>>
>> So if I want to subscribe to everything, I subscribe to G, G/P for only
>> posts, G/C for all comments, and for instance G/C/P3 for all comments of
>> post 3 (these are not really the node names I chose of course).
>>
>> Imagine you want to provide a way to subscribe only to some categories.
>> For instance I like the blog posts of a guy about philosophy, but I
>> don't care when he speaks about nuclear physics because I don't
>> understand at all what he writes. Of course you could "emulate"
>> categories with subnodes once again; but then when a post belongs to
>> several categories, it will be copied to several nodes (and when
>> modified, don't forget to sync all "copies"); moreover if you subscribe
>> to both categories, you will receive the same publication several
>> times.
>> So the (or at least one) solution would be that all posts are in the
>> same nodes, but they can be categorized. So a subscriber subscribes to
>> the P node, then configure which categories interest him. And then the
>> "decision" to notify a subscriber will be done at server side. Each time
>> a new publication is done, the server will send it to any person whose
>> configuration agrees.
>>
>> This can be done with categories, with tags, but also with authors (on
>> multi-author blogs), etc. In fact the better system would allow
>> flexibility.
>>
>> You will do such configuration through your Jabber client, but also my
>> blog can generate such link:
>>
>> xmpp:pubsub.zemarmot.net?action=subscribe;node=home/zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts;categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
>>
>> If I click this link, my Jabber client will propose me to subscribe to
>> the given node and configure it to receive only posts categorized under
>> "Jabber" and "Linux", and tagged as "en" (because I would not speak any
>> other language).
>>
>> Another instance: I was thinking about a real estate website where I
>> subscribe to receive emails when they got a garage close to my
>> appartment and under a given price. Why couldn't such configuration be
>> available on a pubsub node which contains items to sell. And you
>> configure your subscription to be notified only about items which
>> interest you (under some price for instance, and in some category).
>>
>> What do you think of it?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jehan
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
>> View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95
>>
>
>

From bob at wyman.us  Mon May 19 19:06:56 2008
From: bob at wyman.us (Bob Wyman)
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 20:06:56 -0400
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45be5cd40805191706i38edd0d2y5a0eccf5603cac5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Blaine Cook <romeda at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a big fan of pubsub nodes that
> correspond to functioning URLs, e.g.,

Yes. It is often quite appropriate to provide a simple mapping from URL to
pubsub node. However, it should be recognized that doing so isn't always the
right thing to do. Some edge case examples:

   - Early or fixed binding between a node id and a query URL makes a mess
   if you ever need to change the query. For instance, I might want to expose a
   stream of results on "Britney Spears". Initially, I might create a query
   like "Britney Spears" but later realize that I should have used ["Britney
   Spears" OR "Britney Speers"]... In this case, a "late binding" between
   node-id and query would make life easier for subscribers who may have
   difficulty detecting the change and switching to the new node.
   - Exposing the query might not be the right thing to do. Sometimes, the
   search query itself might represent some "intellectual property" that I'm
   not willing to disclose to the net. You can have the results of my search,
   but I might not want you to see my query...
   - Some queries may very long and thus cumbersome to deal with. This is
   particularly a concern with mobile devices that have limited bandwidth.

i.e. Keep it simple if you can, but don't make it simpler than it is...

bob wyman

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Blaine Cook <romeda at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm a big fan of pubsub nodes that correspond to functioning URLs, e.g.,
>
> if your blog has a view:
>
> http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
>
> that shows only Jabber or Linux posts in English, then the
> corresponding pubsub node would be (wait for it!):
>
> http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
>
> (i.e., they're the same). I think it's informative that HTTP doesn't
> have a formalized syntax for specifying query parameters beyond the
> URL string (POST bodies are a different matter, but the *vast*
> majority of use is identical to normal query string parameters).
>
> b.
>
> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Bob Wyman <bob at wyman.us> wrote:
> > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Jehan wrote:
> >> I was thinking about a real estate website where I
> >> subscribe to receive emails when they got a
> >> garage close to my apartment and under
> >> a given price.
> > If you were using XEP-0060 wouldn't you just do this by adding something
> > like a "query-string" field to the node configuration form? See possible
> > stanza below:
> >
> > <iq type="set" to="xmpp.example.com" id="sub1">
> >   <pubsub xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub">
> >     <subscribe
> >         node="real-estate"
> >         jid="foo at example.com">
> >     <options>
> >       <x xmlns="jabber:x:data" type="submit">
> >         <field var="FORM_TYPE" type="hidden">
> >           <value>http://jabber.org/protocol/pubsub#subscribe_options
> </value>
> >         </field>
> >         <field var="title">
> >           <value>Possible Garage</value>
> >         </field>
> >         <field var="query-string">
> >           <value><![CDATA[ (price .lt. $500) & (size .eq.
> large)]></value>
> >         </field>
> >       </x>
> >       </options>
> >     </subscribe>
> >   </pubsub>
> > </iq>
> >
> > bob wyman
> >
> > On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 5:25 AM, JabberForum <
> list-social at jabberforum.org>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I think this kind of feature has already been discussed mixed with other
> >> topics. But I wanted to discuss it here.
> >>
> >> Currently you can configure your subscription (theoritically in the XEP
> >> at least) very basically. Like "I want to receive the whole items,
> >> nothing, the whole body or only an excerpt, etc.). But if you want to
> >> have advanced configuration, you could "play" with subnodes, but this is
> >> very limited. A tag and category system would be advantageous.
> >>
> >> Let me give the examples I was dealing with when I thought about this
> >> all. First a blog with pubsub as I am writing a Wordpress plugin:
> >> currently my plugin enables only to subscribe to all the posts, or all
> >> the comments, or the comments of a given post (or absolutely everything
> >> of course). For this, I made a global container node (let's call it G).
> >> In this one, I have 2 subnodes:
> >> - a leaf node with all the posts (P);
> >> - a container node for comments (C), with inside leaf nodes for each
> >> posts (P1, P2, etc.).
> >>
> >> So if I want to subscribe to everything, I subscribe to G, G/P for only
> >> posts, G/C for all comments, and for instance G/C/P3 for all comments of
> >> post 3 (these are not really the node names I chose of course).
> >>
> >> Imagine you want to provide a way to subscribe only to some categories.
> >> For instance I like the blog posts of a guy about philosophy, but I
> >> don't care when he speaks about nuclear physics because I don't
> >> understand at all what he writes. Of course you could "emulate"
> >> categories with subnodes once again; but then when a post belongs to
> >> several categories, it will be copied to several nodes (and when
> >> modified, don't forget to sync all "copies"); moreover if you subscribe
> >> to both categories, you will receive the same publication several
> >> times.
> >> So the (or at least one) solution would be that all posts are in the
> >> same nodes, but they can be categorized. So a subscriber subscribes to
> >> the P node, then configure which categories interest him. And then the
> >> "decision" to notify a subscriber will be done at server side. Each time
> >> a new publication is done, the server will send it to any person whose
> >> configuration agrees.
> >>
> >> This can be done with categories, with tags, but also with authors (on
> >> multi-author blogs), etc. In fact the better system would allow
> >> flexibility.
> >>
> >> You will do such configuration through your Jabber client, but also my
> >> blog can generate such link:
> >>
> >> xmpp:
> pubsub.zemarmot.net?action=subscribe;node=home/zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts;categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
> >>
> >> If I click this link, my Jabber client will propose me to subscribe to
> >> the given node and configure it to receive only posts categorized under
> >> "Jabber" and "Linux", and tagged as "en" (because I would not speak any
> >> other language).
> >>
> >> Another instance: I was thinking about a real estate website where I
> >> subscribe to receive emails when they got a garage close to my
> >> appartment and under a given price. Why couldn't such configuration be
> >> available on a pubsub node which contains items to sell. And you
> >> configure your subscription to be notified only about items which
> >> interest you (under some price for instance, and in some category).
> >>
> >> What do you think of it?
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jehan
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
> >> View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95
> >>
> >
> >
>
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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Tue May 20 03:14:34 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 10:14:34 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Blaine Cook;358 Wrote: 
> I'm a big fan of pubsub nodes that correspond to functioning URLs,
> e.g.,
> 
> if your blog has a view:
> 
> http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
> 
> that shows only Jabber or Linux posts in English, then the
> corresponding pubsub node would be (wait for it!):
> 
> http://zemarmot.net/jehan/blog/posts?categories=Jabber,Linux;tag=en
> 
> (i.e., they're the same). I think it's informative that HTTP doesn't
> have a formalized syntax for specifying query parameters beyond the
> URL string (POST bodies are a different matter, but the *vast*
> majority of use is identical to normal query string parameters).
> 
> b.
> 
> 

I don't really understand your point... This is not the syntax of
pubsub node, this is the syntax of http. They are just different, hence
you cannot write them the same! Moreover, the view which would filter
only some category/tag/etc. on a blog is dependant on the blog
implementation. It is not a generic standard. With a blog system, it
could be the url you showed, another could contain the category directly
in the address, etc. And even in a single blog system, you can often
choose how will be displayed the address (look at the "permalink"
feature of Wordpress). This is up to the implementation because anyway
there is nothing like tag or category in http/html standards.

In XMPP, there is not either for now, so we could try to "simulate" it,
the same way it is simulated in http, witht he difference there is less
possibility (no script language like php or other to generate dynamic
pages, all is static in pubsub). But I think we could enhance the
protocol by adding a category and tag notion, as this kind of notion is
clearly linked to publications (and pubsub is about publication!).
But I really don't see how this is possible to have the same url syntax
as it is another protocol...


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95


From sh at defuze.org  Tue May 20 09:52:49 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:52:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] Toying with microblogging...
Message-ID: <36398.195.101.247.164.1211295169.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>

Hi folks,

I've been working on mixing XMPP and AtomPub lately and I've gathered some
of what I've already done and more to come use cases in a blog post.

http://www.defuze.org/archives/18-XMPP,-AtomPub-and-microblogging.html

Feel free to comment as I have great fun with such combination :)

- Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From list-social at jabberforum.org  Tue May 20 10:38:39 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:38:39 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39ptuz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Note that all my wonderings about these kinds of pubsub configuration
would probably join (I think) those of Peter Saint Andr? about blog
integration (though I open this discussion to all the pubsub system even
though my main example is also about blogs). You can see the discussion
in the april discussions of the social list:
http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/social/2008-April/000109.html

One point of this discussion was to organize the pubsub nodes for a
blog. For my own, I don't think this is the right question, because I
think this should be implementation specific. Not everybody will have
the same needs, so the organization of the nodes may be different and
efficient depending on the cases (not everyone manages publication the
same way).

But what is important here is not the final organization, but the
"tools" providden to the implementers. Currently the only "tools" are
the possibility to organize in nodes, subnodes, etc. like in the whole
file system history. This is necessary, but very weak as soon as you
want advanced organization, with "stuffs" (the published items, but
maybe even container nodes!) belonging to several categories (so a
system of category and tag), or why not the possibilities of dynamic
nodes (like you can do in http) generated depending on path or options,
etc.

Directory architecture is nice, especially because it is close to our
"material classification system" (you cannot classify a single paper in
several file, unless you copy it), but does not give all the "power"
which is accessible with current technologies, especially computers.


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95


From sh at defuze.org  Tue May 20 10:44:35 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:44:35 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39ptuz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<Jehan.39ptuz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <57303.195.101.247.164.1211298275.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>


>
> Note that all my wonderings about these kinds of pubsub configuration
> would probably join (I think) those of Peter Saint Andr? about blog
> integration (though I open this discussion to all the pubsub system even
> though my main example is also about blogs). You can see the discussion
> in the april discussions of the social list:
> http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/social/2008-April/000109.html
>
> One point of this discussion was to organize the pubsub nodes for a
> blog. For my own, I don't think this is the right question, because I
> think this should be implementation specific. Not everybody will have
> the same needs, so the organization of the nodes may be different and
> efficient depending on the cases (not everyone manages publication the
> same way).
>
> But what is important here is not the final organization, but the
> "tools" providden to the implementers. Currently the only "tools" are
> the possibility to organize in nodes, subnodes, etc. like in the whole
> file system history. This is necessary, but very weak as soon as you
> want advanced organization, with "stuffs" (the published items, but
> maybe even container nodes!) belonging to several categories (so a
> system of category and tag), or why not the possibilities of dynamic
> nodes (like you can do in http) generated depending on path or options,
> etc.
>
> Directory architecture is nice, especially because it is close to our
> "material classification system" (you cannot classify a single paper in
> several file, unless you copy it), but does not give all the "power"
> which is accessible with current technologies, especially computers.
>
>

Maybe I'm off the hook here but I think filesystems have worked that well
*because* they are that simple. Instead of making them more complex (WinFS
anyone?) solutions have arided by indexing them efficiently.

Why not doing that instead? Keep your pubsub nodes simple and
straightforward but index them efficiently.

That's the way I'd do it personally.

- Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From romeda at gmail.com  Tue May 20 10:49:32 2008
From: romeda at gmail.com (Blaine Cook)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 08:49:32 -0700
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 1:14 AM, JabberForum <list-social at jabberforum.org>
wrote:
>
> I don't really understand your point... This is not the syntax of
> pubsub node, this is the syntax of http. They are just different, hence
> you cannot write them the same!

I disagree. My point is that if the spec allows using HTTP URIs as PubSub
nodes (it does), then you can write them the same. If they produce the same
content, then they are the same, just over different transports. By making
the nodes and urls equivalent, the accessibility for developers writing code
against APIs increases dramatically.

> Moreover, the view which would filter
> only some category/tag/etc. on a blog is dependant on the blog
> implementation. It is not a generic standard.

No, it's not a generic standard. However, the web works really well, and has
more adoption than XMPP. Moreover, there have been attempts to normalize URL
structure (see: WS-* vs. REST) which have failed pretty miserably.

> With a blog system, it
> could be the url you showed, another could contain the category directly
> in the address, etc. And even in a single blog system, you can often
> choose how will be displayed the address (look at the "permalink"
> feature of Wordpress). This is up to the implementation because anyway
> there is nothing like tag or category in http/html standards.

Yes (I agree).

> In XMPP, there is not either for now, so we could try to "simulate" it,
> the same way it is simulated in http, witht he difference there is less
> possibility (no script language like php or other to generate dynamic
> pages, all is static in pubsub).

Not true. I've written dynamic PubSub handlers in Ruby (i.e., PubSub
handlers that could support query strings), and it's easy enough to do so in
any language. If you're accepting tags in some other form, e.g. <field />,
then you're writing a dynamic PubSub handler anyways.

> But I think we could enhance the
> protocol by adding a category and tag notion, as this kind of notion is
> clearly linked to publications (and pubsub is about publication!).

See the debate of WS-* to REST. Currently the protocol has support for this,
but uses URLs (!) to define keyword semantics. The example given in the spec
is:

<field var='http://shakespeare.lit/search#keyword'
      type='text-single'
     label='Keyword to match'/>

Moreover, XEP-0060 is 43,103 words long, which translates to about 172 pages
of printed text. The chances of a keywording system being added to a PubSub
architecture are pretty slim, I have to say. It's better to just accept the
fact that usage will be diverse and let people develop their own
methodologies for handling these things.

b.
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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Tue May 20 11:13:57 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:13:57 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org><Jehan.39ptuz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<57303.195.101.247.164.1211298275.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39pvhb@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Sylvain Hellegouarch;374 Wrote: 
> 
> Maybe I'm off the hook here but I think filesystems have worked that
> well
> *because* they are that simple. Instead of making them more complex
> (WinFS
> anyone?) solutions have arided by indexing them efficiently.
> 
> Why not doing that instead? Keep your pubsub nodes simple and
> straightforward but index them efficiently.
> 
> That's the way I'd do it personally.
> 

Hum... in fact that's what I am proposing! :p Sorry if I am maybe
unclear. My proposition is not to change the organization of nodes
"filesystem-like", but to add simply possibilities of accurate
subscription and search (by keywords, like tag/category, or on any
parameter of an item, the author, the title, etc.).
That's what you call indexing. :-)

Of course at the end, one will continue to use the subnode architecture
for items completely separated, but will use indexing systems for others
(when one cannot clearly separate the items in distinct subnode, but
still you want to give possibility to separate them with advanced
methods).


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95


From list-social at jabberforum.org  Tue May 20 11:38:53 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 18:38:53 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Blaine Cook;375 Wrote: 
> 
> I disagree. My point is that if the spec allows using HTTP URIs as
> PubSub
> nodes (it does), then you can write them the same. If they produce the
> same
> content, then they are the same, just over different transports. By
> making
> the nodes and urls equivalent, the accessibility for developers writing
> code
> against APIs increases dramatically.
> 

Maybe. I don't really understand, in fact but you seem to have a
precise idea of what you mean. So do you say that you can subscribe to
an XMPP node by clicking on a http url? HTTP and XMPP are separate tcp
protocols and unless you propose to access XMPP through an HTTP layer, I
don't really understand how you make an XMPP url with an http url. Could
you explain me this please, because maybe there is a very interesting
point here that I don't manage to get. :-)

> 
> Not true. I've written dynamic PubSub handlers in Ruby (i.e., PubSub
> handlers that could support query strings), and it's easy enough to do
> so in
> any language. If you're accepting tags in some other form, e.g. <field
> />,
> then you're writing a dynamic PubSub handler anyways.
> 

I did not say it was not possible (of course it is) and that it did not
exist (though I didn't know, this is nice), but that it was not a
specification (of course I may be wrong. I have not read all the XMPP
specs, far from a little part even).
And for me having a specification helps to spread a technology. Anyway
dynamic pubsub is "less" important to be standardized though, because it
is server-side only. So you can implement it without wondering whether
some client would implement it too, etc. as it will work anyway
transparently on a client point of view.

> 
> See the debate of WS-* to REST. Currently the protocol has support for
> this,
> but uses URLs (!) to define keyword semantics. The example given in the
> spec
> is:
> 
> <field var='http://shakespeare.lit/search#keyword'
> type='text-single'
> label='Keyword to match'/>
> 

I don't really know this debate. I will make some searches. If you have
interesting links, don't hesitate too.

> 
> Moreover, XEP-0060 is 43,103 words long, which translates to about 172
> pages
> of printed text. The chances of a keywording system being added to a
> PubSub
> architecture are pretty slim, I have to say. It's better to just accept
> the
> fact that usage will be diverse and let people develop their own
> methodologies for handling these things.
> 

For me, the size of the XEP should not be a brake for enhancing it.
First because you may make a second XEP related to it for enhanced use
case. Also because this is not like a compact text and it is very easy
to read with the summary (a technical text well structured is not to be
read like a story book, you can read some parts very fast, jump over
others, etc.). And I think some parts of this XEP can be enhanced
anyway, and maybe completely transform, etc.

And finally for this, yes a specification is definitely useful because
it cannot be just implementation dependent. For the dynamic node url,
yes you can leave people develop their own methodologies, as I said,
because it is server side.

But for a system of powerful indexing/search/subscription by tag (or
other field values), there is also a client-side implementation (because
if your server leaves the possibility for extended search but that your
client does not know how to make it, there is no use, unless you want
people to directly type XML). So there needs to be a common
specification, unless you want dozens of different implementation all
not-compatible for node/item indexing...

Jehan


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
View this thread: http://www.jabberforum.org/showthread.php?t=95


From stpeter at stpeter.im  Wed May 21 08:44:48 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 07:44:48 -0600
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <48342750.8040605@stpeter.im>

On 05/20/2008 10:38 AM, JabberForum wrote:
> Blaine Cook;375 Wrote: 
>> I disagree. My point is that if the spec allows using HTTP URIs as
>> PubSub
>> nodes (it does), then you can write them the same. If they produce the
>> same
>> content, then they are the same, just over different transports. By
>> making
>> the nodes and urls equivalent, the accessibility for developers writing
>> code
>> against APIs increases dramatically.
>>
> 
> Maybe. I don't really understand, in fact but you seem to have a
> precise idea of what you mean. So do you say that you can subscribe to
> an XMPP node by clicking on a http url? HTTP and XMPP are separate tcp
> protocols and unless you propose to access XMPP through an HTTP layer, I
> don't really understand how you make an XMPP url with an http url. Could
> you explain me this please, because maybe there is a very interesting
> point here that I don't manage to get. :-)

He is saying that the NodeID would look like an HTTP URL. Now if you
want to identify that Node ID as an XMPP URI, it would be some long
string with xmpp: at the front, followed by the JID of the pubsub
service, followed by the NodeID (which just happens to look the same as
the HTTP URL at which you can get the same content, but suitably escaped).

>> Not true. I've written dynamic PubSub handlers in Ruby (i.e., PubSub
>> handlers that could support query strings), and it's easy enough to do
>> so in
>> any language. If you're accepting tags in some other form, e.g. <field
>> />,
>> then you're writing a dynamic PubSub handler anyways.
>>
> 
> I did not say it was not possible (of course it is) and that it did not
> exist (though I didn't know, this is nice), but that it was not a
> specification (of course I may be wrong. I have not read all the XMPP
> specs, far from a little part even).
> And for me having a specification helps to spread a technology. Anyway
> dynamic pubsub is "less" important to be standardized though, because it
> is server-side only. So you can implement it without wondering whether
> some client would implement it too, etc. as it will work anyway
> transparently on a client point of view.

I don't think that category or tagging methods need to be defined in
XEP-0060 -- that's something that people can build on top of the
primitives in XEP-0060. For example that's what Bob did back in the old
pubsub.com days.

>> See the debate of WS-* to REST. Currently the protocol has support for
>> this,
>> but uses URLs (!) to define keyword semantics. The example given in the
>> spec
>> is:
>>
>> <field var='http://shakespeare.lit/search#keyword'
>> type='text-single'
>> label='Keyword to match'/>
>>
> 
> I don't really know this debate. I will make some searches. If you have
> interesting links, don't hesitate too.
> 
>> Moreover, XEP-0060 is 43,103 words long, which translates to about 172
>> pages
>> of printed text. The chances of a keywording system being added to a
>> PubSub
>> architecture are pretty slim, I have to say. It's better to just accept
>> the
>> fact that usage will be diverse and let people develop their own
>> methodologies for handling these things.
>>
> 
> For me, the size of the XEP should not be a brake for enhancing it.
> First because you may make a second XEP related to it for enhanced use
> case. Also because this is not like a compact text and it is very easy
> to read with the summary (a technical text well structured is not to be
> read like a story book, you can read some parts very fast, jump over
> others, etc.). And I think some parts of this XEP can be enhanced
> anyway, and maybe completely transform, etc.
> 
> And finally for this, yes a specification is definitely useful because
> it cannot be just implementation dependent. For the dynamic node url,
> yes you can leave people develop their own methodologies, as I said,
> because it is server side.
> 
> But for a system of powerful indexing/search/subscription by tag (or
> other field values), there is also a client-side implementation (because
> if your server leaves the possibility for extended search but that your
> client does not know how to make it, there is no use, unless you want
> people to directly type XML). So there needs to be a common
> specification, unless you want dozens of different implementation all
> not-compatible for node/item indexing...

Sure, feel free to write up a proposal. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Wed May 21 09:28:17 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:28:17 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<48342750.8040605@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39rlab@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Peter Saint-Andre;408 Wrote: 
> 
> 
> Sure, feel free to write up a proposal. :)
> 
> Peter
> 

Ok, I will try to. Is there a procedure to write a proposal? I saw
this: http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/editor.shtml But for the
formatting, do I just copy another XEP by simply changing the content?

I will write a proposal when I will have some time, but I hope it won't
be too bad as I never did such thing.

Jehan


-- 
Jehan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jehan's Profile: http://www.jabberforum.org/member.php?userid=16911
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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Wed May 21 09:33:25 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:33:25 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<48342750.8040605@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39rlio@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Peter Saint-Andre;408 Wrote: 
> 
> He is saying that the NodeID would look like an HTTP URL. Now if you
> want to identify that Node ID as an XMPP URI, it would be some long
> string with xmpp: at the front, followed by the JID of the pubsub
> service, followed by the NodeID (which just happens to look the same
> as
> the HTTP URL at which you can get the same content, but suitably
> escaped).
> > > > 
> > 
> > Ok. I was thinking he wanted an XMPP uri of the form "http://...". But
> > if this was only about the path of the node which looks like to the http
> > path, why not... though I don't think this point is so important for my
> > own (but easier, clearly yes).
> > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > I don't think that category or tagging methods need to be defined in
> > > XEP-0060 -- that's something that people can build on top of the
> > > primitives in XEP-0060. For example that's what Bob did back in the
> > > old
> > > pubsub.com days.
> > > > > > > 
> > 
> > Could you "light" me and tell me what had been done in these days
> > where I maybe didn't even know what was XMPP? This can be
> > interesting.


-- 
Jehan
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From bob at wyman.us  Wed May 21 09:48:18 2008
From: bob at wyman.us (Bob Wyman)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:48:18 -0400
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39rlio@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com>
	<Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org> <48342750.8040605@stpeter.im>
	<Jehan.39rlio@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <45be5cd40805210748r5de321b1q9f36cbe394581b5@mail.gmail.com>

Jehan wrote:
> Could you "light" me and tell me what had been done in
> these days where I maybe didn't even know what was
> XMPP? This can be interesting.

You might find it useful to read the "tutorial" on working with PubSub.com's
JEP-0060 service. It can be retrieved from Archive.org at:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050901044459/www.pubsub.com/bobwyman/pubsub_xmpp.html

Also, see section "13.19 Content-Based Pubsub Systems" in the XEP-0060 spec
for one way of doing content-based subscriptions. "Category" subscriptions
should probably be done much like this.

bob wyman
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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Wed May 21 10:15:37 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 09:15:37 -0600
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
In-Reply-To: <Jehan.39rlab@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<48342750.8040605@stpeter.im>
	<Jehan.39rlab@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
Message-ID: <48343C99.8010201@stpeter.im>

On 05/21/2008 8:28 AM, JabberForum wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre;408 Wrote: 
>>
>> Sure, feel free to write up a proposal. :)
>>
>> Peter
>>
> 
> Ok, I will try to. Is there a procedure to write a proposal? I saw
> this: http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/editor.shtml But for the
> formatting, do I just copy another XEP by simply changing the content?
> 
> I will write a proposal when I will have some time, but I hope it won't
> be too bad as I never did such thing.

Don't feel that you need to write an official XEP about it right away.
It might be easier to create a howto, wiki page, blog post, or whatever.
But, yes, here are some helpful pages about writing XEPs (the format is
very much like XHTML):

http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/submit.shtml

http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From list-social at jabberforum.org  Wed May 21 10:52:51 2008
From: list-social at jabberforum.org (JabberForum)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 17:52:51 +0200
Subject: [Social] Advanced publication option
References: <Jehan.39nhvn@no-mx.jabberforum.org><45be5cd40805191435g3afe999cs9731c5a7caaae3f5@mail.gmail.com><d37b4b430805191617x41dd81dco5c895f6df1e9d574@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39p9az@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<d37b4b430805200849g55cdb7e4pf7544478e7aee949@mail.gmail.com><Jehan.39pwmz@no-mx.jabberforum.org>	<48342750.8040605@stpeter.im><Jehan.39rlab@no-mx.jabberforum.org>
	<48343C99.8010201@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <Jehan.39rp6b@no-mx.jabberforum.org>


Peter Saint-Andre;413 Wrote: 
> 
> Don't feel that you need to write an official XEP about it right away.
> It might be easier to create a howto, wiki page, blog post, or
> whatever.
> But, yes, here are some helpful pages about writing XEPs (the format
> is
> very much like XHTML):
> 

Ah ok. Perfect. Then I will probably preferably write some informal
page then. Anyway this is merely to propose something for discussion,
not to give anything like a good solution or way of doing.

And thanks Bob for the links. I will have a look to them. :-)


-- 
Jehan
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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Wed May 21 17:12:59 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 16:12:59 -0600
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
In-Reply-To: <4828923E.20900@danbri.org>
References: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im> <4828923E.20900@danbri.org>
Message-ID: <48349E6B.70404@stpeter.im>

On 05/12/2008 12:53 PM, Dan Brickley wrote:
> I've been hacking around with
> the use of XMPP as a data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter
> well knows, being my XMPP helpline). Some notes on that at [1]. 

> [1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278

See also http://crschmidt.net/semweb/sparqlxmpp/

I still don't quite understand SPARQL, but I'm sure that's because I'm
missing the appropriate synapses. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From danbri at danbri.org  Wed May 21 18:02:15 2008
From: danbri at danbri.org (Dan Brickley)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 00:02:15 +0100
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
In-Reply-To: <48349E6B.70404@stpeter.im>
References: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im> <4828923E.20900@danbri.org>
	<48349E6B.70404@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <4834A9F7.4050609@danbri.org>

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> On 05/12/2008 12:53 PM, Dan Brickley wrote:
>> I've been hacking around with
>> the use of XMPP as a data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter
>> well knows, being my XMPP helpline). Some notes on that at [1]. 
> 
>> [1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278
> 
> See also http://crschmidt.net/semweb/sparqlxmpp/

Yup, Chris wrote this up based on IRC chats after the original design 
discussions I had with you. He beat me to running code :) The mapping of 
SPARQL result set format to XMPP IQ markup mutated a bit over time, so 
there isn't clean interop currently between his python and my jqbus java 
stuff. But it's all wrong anyway since large resultsets are too big for 
one IQ; need to move to some batching or attachments-based model.

> I still don't quite understand SPARQL, but I'm sure that's because I'm
> missing the appropriate synapses. :)

OK basic idea of SPARQL:

1. understand the RDF 'nodes and arcs' data model. Quick messy potted 
version here, sorry if this is too hasty...

An RDF graph encodes a collection of simple statements or claims, which 
can be visualised as an edge-labelled graph, where the inter-node edges 
in this graph correspond to properties/relationships/attributes. Each 
edge links something either to another thing, or to a literal value. So 
each node is either a literal (which may either be tagged with a 
language code, or with a datatype URI), or a non-literal. Non literals 
may be labelled with a URI, or may be 'blank' (although actual 
representations of this graph structure often have a 
private-to-the-graph identifier; however this is invisible to RDF). The 
label on each edge is itself a URI, for usual namespacing reasons.

2. think of RDF graphs as descriptions of the world; sets of claims 
which may or may not be accurate. The graph can be 
written/published/excanged in any of the various concrete RDF syntaxes. 
RDF/XML is a common if ugly one. Also we have RDFa, Turtle/N3, and GRDDL 
which uses XSLT to turn colloqiual XML into RDF graphs.

3. think of an RDF dataset as a collection of one or more of these 
graphs; a system dealing with multiple such graphs identifies each with 
a URI.

4. RDF querying in SPARQL is all about asking questions of one or more 
such graphs. As such, an RDF query is conceptually a bit like an RDF 
document, except bits can be marked as missing and labelled with 
variable names.

So an RDF/XML document might encode a graph that says something equiv to:

'there exists a Movie, its :homepage property a has value which is the 
URI <http://ironmanmovie.marvel.com/>; it's :title property has the 
literal value 'Iron Man' and its :starring property has the literal 
value "Robert Downey Jr.".'

(I'll spare you the XML version here)

By contrast SPARQL uses a non-XML notation to express questions. You 
might write sparql which says,

	'OK give me values ?x and ?y where ?x is the URI of the movie's 
:homepage, and ?y is the title, wherever some thing that is Movie has a 
:starring property with value "Robert Downey Jr.".

(that's in pseudo-sparql english for now)

And depending on the dataset you ran the query against, you might get 
one row back, with ?x=http://ironmanmovie.marvel.com/ ?y="Iron Man".
Or you might get a load more rows describing other movies.

5. For now, just focus on this part of SPARQL. The bit that looks most 
like SQL. We have a query which is asking for variable-to-value 
bindings, tabular ... against some target data. It returns a set of 
'hits' just like SQL over JDBC/ODBC/DBI etc. There are detail 
differences, but conceptually it is similar.

SPARQL defines XML and JSON bindings for these result sets. The 
XMPP/SPARQL binding work is an attempt to flow these through XMPP 
instead of the more traditional HTTP-based bindings.

http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-XMLres/
http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-json-res/ ...are the formats, there's 
also a protocol spec, http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ which 
also covers the HTTP binding. By far the most work is in the query 
language spec though, http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/

6. er that's it. I guess I should write the above stuff in RDF/XML and 
SPARQL here.

target data:

_:r1 rdf:type eg:Movie .
_:r1 eg:homepage <http://ironmanmovie.marvel.com/> .
_:r1 eg:title "Iron Man" .
_:r1 eg:starring "Robert Downey Jr." .

this could also be written

[ a eg:Movie;
   eg:homepage <http://ironmanmovie.marvel.com/> ;
   eg:title "Iron Man";
   eg:starring "Robert Downey Jr.";
]

...in Turtle/SPARQL notation. The RDF/XML snippet for this might be

<eg:Movie xmlns:eg="http://eg.example.com/abcd#">
  <eg:homepage rdf:resource="http://ironmannovie.marvel.com/"/>
  <eg:title>Iron Man</eg:title>
  <eg:starring>Robert Downey Jr.</eg:starring>
</eg:Movie>

A key point is that SPARQL doesn't care which notation the source data 
was originally in. Everything gets normalised into the triple/graph 
model, and queries are written in terms of it.

So our sample query in SPARQL might be:

PREFIX eg: <http://eg.example.com/abcd#>
SELECT ?x ?y
WHERE {
[ a eg:Movie;
   eg:homepage ?x ;
   eg:title ?y ;
   eg:starring "Robert Downey Jr." ;
] .
}

# here 'a' is short for rdf:type, and the [ chunk bracket ] notation is 
a way of writing a blank node

and the results are like this:

?x=http://ironmannovie.marvel.com/ ?y="Iron Man"
?x=http://someothermovie.com/ ?y="Some Other Movie"





Humm ok that was a bit rambling, ... does it help at all? Main point I 
was aiming at here is that understanding basic sparql is a small step 
from being comfortable with the RDF graph model. Since queries are 
really just RDF graphs with bits labelled missing ("?x" etc), and query 
results are the values from the graph that fit the pattern specified.

There is a lot of extra detail, eg. around GRAPH clause which lets you 
match specific graphs in the target dataset, or for optionals, filters, 
datatyping etc. But the core is pretty simple.

Hope that helps :)

cheers,

Dan

--
http://danbri.org/

From ansell.peter at gmail.com  Wed May 21 18:32:26 2008
From: ansell.peter at gmail.com (Peter Ansell)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 09:32:26 +1000
Subject: [Social] OT: list subscribers
In-Reply-To: <4834A9F7.4050609@danbri.org>
References: <48288B58.6090308@stpeter.im> <4828923E.20900@danbri.org>
	<48349E6B.70404@stpeter.im> <4834A9F7.4050609@danbri.org>
Message-ID: <a1be7e0e0805211632lde95b31le3212954c6906185@mail.gmail.com>

2008/5/22 Dan Brickley <danbri at danbri.org>:
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>> On 05/12/2008 12:53 PM, Dan Brickley wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been hacking around with
>>> the use of XMPP as a data bus for RDF querying using SPARQL (as Peter
>>> well knows, being my XMPP helpline). Some notes on that at [1].
>>
>>> [1] http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278
>>
>> See also http://crschmidt.net/semweb/sparqlxmpp/
>
> Yup, Chris wrote this up based on IRC chats after the original design
> discussions I had with you. He beat me to running code :) The mapping of
> SPARQL result set format to XMPP IQ markup mutated a bit over time, so there
> isn't clean interop currently between his python and my jqbus java stuff.
> But it's all wrong anyway since large resultsets are too big for one IQ;
> need to move to some batching or attachments-based model.
>

I have never looked into XMPP, except for observing that some Instant
Mesaging applications use it, so sorry if these sound like mundane
introductory questions.

Does XMPP have a reliable error handling mechanism outside of the HTTP
model? HTTP doesn't exactly have the best error handling so another
format would be nice.

Would SPARQL-RESULT-XML be only inserted using namespaces into XMPP
XML documents or does XMPP define a MIME-like splitting with
attachment handling? You said something above about resultsets being
too big so I assume there is a maximum envelope size for XMPP,
correct?

Would it be a good place to think about distributed SPARQL querying as
a mainstream operation, since Peer to peer mechanisms go against the
grain of database driven SPARQL already.

How does authorisation and encryption work for XMPP, as I currently
utilise HTTPS transport with HTTP type authentication for determining
whether to execute sparql queries based on the requestor privileges
and return encrypted results to avoid network sniffing. Has oauth
actually been implemented as a proof of concept for use with XMPP, as
from my quick glance it deals with HTTP a lot in the examples.

Have any links between OpenID and XMPP been investigated which could
be utilised for enabling distributed authenticated SPARQL querying, or
does this come for free with the oauth strategy?

Hope that isn't too many questions at once! XMPP sounds like a good
place to look into for supporting these features which are either
unreliable or hard to implement on top of HTTP based sparql endpoints.

Cheers,

Peter

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Thu May 22 23:01:50 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:01:50 -0600
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub, openid,
	python]
Message-ID: <483641AE.4030601@stpeter.im>

Hey Sylvain, will you be at the XMPP Summit in July? ;-)

http://www.xmpp.org/summit/summit5.shtml


-------- Original Message --------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 23:59:35 -0400
From: bear <bear42 at gmail.com>
To: summit at xmpp.org
Subject: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub, openid, python

http://www.defuze.org/archives/18-XMPP,-AtomPub-and-microblogging.html

probably should find out if Sylvain Hellegouarch is attending :)

-- 
---
Bear

bear at seesmic.com (work)
bear at code-bear.com (jabber & email)
http://code-bear.com/bearlog (weblog)

PGP Fingerprint = 9996 719F 973D B11B E111 D770 9331 E822 40B3 CD29

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From sh at defuze.org  Fri May 23 01:46:21 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 08:46:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub,
 openid, python]
In-Reply-To: <483641AE.4030601@stpeter.im>
References: <483641AE.4030601@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <56078.195.101.247.164.1211525181.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>

Hi guys,

I wish I could come yeah but the cost and the time it'd take for me to get
there put me off unfortunately. Mind you I'd be glad to join if you were
to ship the whole conference to France of course :D

I'll be making sure to have my demo applications finished before then so
that people may play with it if they want.

- Sylvain


> Hey Sylvain, will you be at the XMPP Summit in July? ;-)
>
> http://www.xmpp.org/summit/summit5.shtml
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 23:59:35 -0400
> From: bear <bear42 at gmail.com>
> To: summit at xmpp.org
> Subject: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub, openid, python
>
> http://www.defuze.org/archives/18-XMPP,-AtomPub-and-microblogging.html
>
> probably should find out if Sylvain Hellegouarch is attending :)
>
> --
> ---
> Bear
>
> bear at seesmic.com (work)
> bear at code-bear.com (jabber & email)
> http://code-bear.com/bearlog (weblog)
>
> PGP Fingerprint = 9996 719F 973D B11B E111 D770 9331 E822 40B3 CD29
>
>


-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Fri May 23 08:11:14 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 07:11:14 -0600
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub,
 openid, python]
In-Reply-To: <56078.195.101.247.164.1211525181.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
References: <483641AE.4030601@stpeter.im>
	<56078.195.101.247.164.1211525181.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
Message-ID: <4836C272.2030407@stpeter.im>

On 05/23/2008 12:46 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> I wish I could come yeah but the cost and the time it'd take for me to get
> there put me off unfortunately. Mind you I'd be glad to join if you were
> to ship the whole conference to France of course :D

Well, XMPP Summit #6 will be held in Brussels next February, the same
weekend as FOSDEM 2009. :)

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From sh at defuze.org  Fri May 23 08:21:21 2008
From: sh at defuze.org (Sylvain Hellegouarch)
Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 15:21:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: [Summit] Interesting project, xmpp, pubsub,
 openid, python]
In-Reply-To: <4836C272.2030407@stpeter.im>
References: <483641AE.4030601@stpeter.im>
	<56078.195.101.247.164.1211525181.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>
	<4836C272.2030407@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <32916.195.101.247.164.1211548881.squirrel@mail1.webfaction.com>


> On 05/23/2008 12:46 AM, Sylvain Hellegouarch wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I wish I could come yeah but the cost and the time it'd take for me to
>> get
>> there put me off unfortunately. Mind you I'd be glad to join if you were
>> to ship the whole conference to France of course :D
>
> Well, XMPP Summit #6 will be held in Brussels next February, the same
> weekend as FOSDEM 2009. :)
>

Well now we're talking :)

Brussels is a great place too. I mean food and beer wise :D

- Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Hellegouarch
http://www.defuze.org

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Tue May 27 22:20:38 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:20:38 -0600
Subject: [Social] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt]
Message-ID: <483CCF86.9020202@stpeter.im>

FYI.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Internet-Drafts at ietf.org
To: i-d-announce at ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action:draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:00:02 -0700 (PDT)

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.

	Title           : Atom Link Relation: Discuss
	Author(s)       : P. Saint-Andre
	Filename        : draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2008-05-27

This specification defines a link relation that enables an Atom
document to point to a venue for multi-party discussion of the
document or its primary topic.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-saintandre-atomlink-discuss-00.txt


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