Mailing lists vs. MUCs (was: Proposal for a moderation team)
Hi all, I wanted to split off the recent discussion by Peter and Travis suggesting we may consider moving away from mailing lists in favor of MUCs. I think this deserves its own thread so as not to dilute the ongoing conversation in the previous discussion. Personally, I am not in favor of abandoning mailing lists for this type of discussion. Mailing lists have several important advantages: - Time to respond thoughtfully: Mailing lists allow participants to carefully compose responses. Some people are naturally quick at finding the right words in real time, but others (also including many for whom English is not a native language) benefit from (or simply prefer) having more time to reflect. For example, composing this email took me 41 minutes (longer than I care to admit), a duration that would generally be impractical in a live chat room. - Asynchronous participation and time zones: Mailing lists naturally allow people to contribute "later" which is much harder to do in chat rooms (where conversations 'moved on'). This is especially helpful for people in different time zones or those who cannot respond immediately. - Offline processing and focus: Threads in a mailing list are ordered and easy to read offline. Chat rooms often mix multiple topics, making it harder to follow the discussion. In practice, I don't expect the majority of people to scroll back in history, which significantly reduces the potential reach. - Engaging quieter participants: Mailing lists often generate responses from participants who do not otherwise join MUC discussions. - Record keeping and referencing: Mailing list archives provide a single, persistent URL for referencing discussions. Chat logs are often fragmented and thus lack a canonical link. I understand that, technically, XMPP technology could be used in ways beyond standard instant messaging to support discussions like these, and some clients could replicate many of the benefits of mailing lists. However, in practice, I don't expect the majority of users to take advantage of these features consistently. Even today, features such as message references or reactions are inconsistently supported, which can make following discussions difficult for people who cannot, or prefer not to, change their XMPP implementation. So while MUCs are great for fast-paced, interactive discussions where ideas can bounce around quickly, I see mailing lists as far more practical for thoughtful, organized discussions that people can read, reflect on, and reference later. Kind regards, Guus
On 4 Mar 2026, at 12:04, Guus der Kinderen <guus.der.kinderen@gmail.com> wrote:
Personally, I am not in favor of abandoning mailing lists for this type of discussion. Mailing lists have several important advantages: Time to respond thoughtfully: Mailing lists allow participants to carefully compose responses. Some people are naturally quick at finding the right words in real time, but others (also including many for whom English is not a native language) benefit from (or simply prefer) having more time to reflect. For example, composing this email took me 41 minutes (longer than I care to admit), a duration that would generally be impractical in a live chat room. Asynchronous participation and time zones: Mailing lists naturally allow people to contribute "later" which is much harder to do in chat rooms (where conversations 'moved on'). This is especially helpful for people in different time zones or those who cannot respond immediately. Offline processing and focus: Threads in a mailing list are ordered and easy to read offline. Chat rooms often mix multiple topics, making it harder to follow the discussion. In practice, I don't expect the majority of people to scroll back in history, which significantly reduces the potential reach. Engaging quieter participants: Mailing lists often generate responses from participants who do not otherwise join MUC discussions. Record keeping and referencing: Mailing list archives provide a single, persistent URL for referencing discussions. Chat logs are often fragmented and thus lack a canonical link.
Strongly agree with this. /K
On 4 March 2026 13:04:58 CET, Guus der Kinderen <guus.der.kinderen@gmail.com> wrote:
So while MUCs are great for fast-paced, interactive discussions where ideas can bounce around quickly, I see mailing lists as far more practical for thoughtful, organized discussions that people can read, reflect on, and reference later.
And to be honest: I don't have the time to monitor, triage and follow the discussions in the MUCs, the mailing lists are much more structured and therefore my lifeline to the XSF... Winfried -- Normally there is some text here, bragging about the new phone and excusing for the brevity. That is insane: if this phone was really that great, I would have sent a decent mail.
So while MUCs are great for fast-paced, interactive discussions where ideas can bounce around quickly, I see mailing lists as far more practical for thoughtful, organized discussions that people can read, reflect on, and reference later.
And to be honest: I don't have the time to monitor, triage and follow the discussions in the MUCs, the mailing lists are much more structured and therefore my lifeline to the XSF...
same here, there are times where I am super busy and miss hundreds or all messages in our MUCs. Mailing list is much easier, also because the volume is super low compared to MUC. Alex
I wanted to split off the recent discussion by Peter and Travis suggesting we may consider moving away from mailing lists in favor of MUCs. I think this deserves its own thread so as not to dilute the ongoing conversation in the previous discussion.
I greatly prefer MUCs for 90% of discussion since they are always with me and easy to participate in asynchronously when I have time without feeling like I must really "sit down to form a reply" in very long form. However, I don't think we should remove long form completely. Of course long form could be a wiki or a forum, but the mailing lists already exist and work well for this so I don't see any downside to keeping this format.
Hi, Le mercredi 4 mars 2026, 15:15:16 heure normale d’Europe centrale Stephen Paul Weber a écrit :
I wanted to split off the recent discussion by Peter and Travis suggesting we may consider moving away from mailing lists in favor of MUCs. I think this deserves its own thread so as not to dilute the ongoing conversation in the previous discussion.
I greatly prefer MUCs for 90% of discussion since they are always with me and easy to participate in asynchronously
Why you wouldn't have emails always with you too? There are plenty of email clients available on mobile platforms. And I personally find easier to participate asynchronously with email than MUC (it feels weird to me to answer to an old message in a MUC).
when I have time without feeling like I must really "sit down to form a reply" in very long form.
Well from my experience, I'm more reluctant to reply in a MUC, because people can reply immediately, and you're good for a discussion which may last for hours. Sure you can stop replying, but I find it easier to do it in a mailing list, and go back to it at a later point if necessary. Of course your mileage may vary.
However, I don't think we should remove long form completely. Of course long form could be a wiki or a forum, but the mailing lists already exist and work well for this so I don't see any downside to keeping this format.
We can have XMPP forums and keep the mailing lists at the same time. Best, Goffi
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 at 12:05, Guus der Kinderen <guus.der.kinderen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
I wanted to split off the recent discussion by Peter and Travis suggesting we may consider moving away from mailing lists in favor of MUCs. I think this deserves its own thread so as not to dilute the ongoing conversation in the previous discussion.
Personally, I am not in favor of abandoning mailing lists for this type of discussion. Mailing lists have several important advantages:
- Time to respond thoughtfully: Mailing lists allow participants to carefully compose responses. Some people are naturally quick at finding the right words in real time, but others (also including many for whom English is not a native language) benefit from (or simply prefer) having more time to reflect. For example, composing this email took me 41 minutes (longer than I care to admit), a duration that would generally be impractical in a live chat room. - Asynchronous participation and time zones: Mailing lists naturally allow people to contribute "later" which is much harder to do in chat rooms (where conversations 'moved on'). This is especially helpful for people in different time zones or those who cannot respond immediately. - Offline processing and focus: Threads in a mailing list are ordered and easy to read offline. Chat rooms often mix multiple topics, making it harder to follow the discussion. In practice, I don't expect the majority of people to scroll back in history, which significantly reduces the potential reach. - Engaging quieter participants: Mailing lists often generate responses from participants who do not otherwise join MUC discussions. - Record keeping and referencing: Mailing list archives provide a single, persistent URL for referencing discussions. Chat logs are often fragmented and thus lack a canonical link.
I understand that, technically, XMPP technology could be used in ways beyond standard instant messaging to support discussions like these, and some clients could replicate many of the benefits of mailing lists. However, in practice, I don't expect the majority of users to take advantage of these features consistently. Even today, features such as message references or reactions are inconsistently supported, which can make following discussions difficult for people who cannot, or prefer not to, change their XMPP implementation.
So while MUCs are great for fast-paced, interactive discussions where ideas can bounce around quickly, I see mailing lists as far more practical for thoughtful, organized discussions that people can read, reflect on, and reference later.
Totally agree, couldn't have put it better. I've been deeply frustrated several times recently to discover XEPs changing without being at all aware that discussion happened, because it's taken place entirely in a MUC and the mailing list wasn't ever involved. There are lots more people with useful opinions than ever happen to be online and watching the MUC at any given time, we'll develop better protocols with their input. Dave.
Hi, Le mercredi 4 mars 2026, 13:04:58 heure normale d’Europe centrale Guus der Kinderen a écrit :
Hi all,
I wanted to split off the recent discussion by Peter and Travis suggesting we may consider moving away from mailing lists in favor of MUCs. I think this deserves its own thread so as not to dilute the ongoing conversation in the previous discussion.
Personally, I am not in favor of abandoning mailing lists for this type of discussion. Mailing lists have several important advantages: [SNIP]
Same here, I'm barely checking MUCs, even if sometime (rarely these days), I can follow it more closely. Mailing list is perfect for me, as I can see the main threads, see what I need to check in details, and read when I have time. I would be a really bad move IMO to transfer discussion to MUC. Also, as a reminder, I've demoed at last summit the forum I'm working on which is working with the email gateway : that means that you can have nice UI if you want while not touching the mailing list, so it works the same for everybody. Also, it's really easy to add any feature people wants, like notifications, a message with topics of the day, etc. I would be happy to install an instance somewhere for XSF (in coming months), so we can test. Best, Goffi
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 at 20:44, Goffi <goffi@goffi.org> wrote:
I would be happy to install an instance somewhere for XSF (in coming months), so we can test.
Does this need special rights? If it's "just" a docker image or two, I can host that. (Ancient machines but a decent connection, so no real running costs to me). As you imply, the main problem with MUC vs Mailing List is asynchronicity and form, so maybe a forum system which is also a mailing list would satisfy a lot of people. I also wonder if it'd be useful for the IETF, which has similar struggles. Maybe grab me privately and we'll see what we can do. Dave.
Hi Dave, sorry for the late answer, Le jeudi 5 mars 2026, 10:37:50 heure normale d’Europe centrale Dave Cridland a écrit :
On Wed, 4 Mar 2026 at 20:44, Goffi <goffi@goffi.org> wrote:
I would be happy to install an instance somewhere for XSF (in coming months), so we can test.
Does this need special rights? If it's "just" a docker image or two, I can host that. (Ancient machines but a decent connection, so no real running costs to me).
It needs a configured XMPP server, then it's a component to add. The gateway uses an existing email account (via IMAP/SMTP) so ideally, their should be gateways on XMPP server so people can use their own credentials. But we can also use a dedicated email address (either with read-only forum to test, or to write but then it will be sent from the test email).
As you imply, the main problem with MUC vs Mailing List is asynchronicity and form, so maybe a forum system which is also a mailing list would satisfy a lot of people.
The main advantage here is that the current system stay in place and is not modified at all. But people wanting a more modern and user-friendly UX can have it, and it's XMPP.
I also wonder if it'd be useful for the IETF, which has similar struggles.
Maybe grab me privately and we'll see what we can do.
I was talking about coming months because I have too much on the table right now, and I'm actually also working on improving installation.
Dave.
Best, Goffi
participants (7)
-
Alexander Gnauck -
Dave Cridland -
Goffi -
Guus der Kinderen -
Kevin Smith -
Stephen Paul Weber -
Winfried Tilanus