[Operators] chatroom flooders

bear bear42 at gmail.com
Fri Jun 22 15:43:20 UTC 2012


On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im> wrote:
> On 6/22/12 9:37 AM, David Banes wrote:
>> On 22/06/2012, at 4:32 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/22/12 9:30 AM, bear wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 11:24 AM, David Banes <david at banes.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/06/2012, at 4:20 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/22/12 6:16 AM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/22/12 4:01 AM, Tim Schumacher wrote:
>>>>>>>> At Thu, 21 Jun 2012 21:00:45 -0700,
>>>>>>>> Ed - 0x1b, Inc. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It seems that many of those who run multi-user chat services have
>>>>>>>>>> experienced chatroom flooders. What best practices do people have for
>>>>>>>>>> fighting this? It seems the best we can do in real time is change the
>>>>>>>>>> room to moderated so that new flooders can't send messages, but that's
>>>>>>>>>> not a very good solution and we should be able to come up with
>>>>>>>>>> something better. I've been thinking about ways to use entity
>>>>>>>>>> reputation (XEP-0275), but other suggestions are welcome. :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How about tar-pitting the flooders - like OpenBSD's spamd? (and not
>>>>>>>>> the spam filter spamd)
>>>>>>>>> It has a good feature set. I like that it works out at the firewall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tarpitting sounds good, the problem I can see that in heated
>>>>>>>> discussion this could also trigger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another Problem I see with tarpitting is when the flooder joins with
>>>>>>>> 10 or more bots tarpitting would not be very effective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that's what happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does spamd work by blocking IP addresses?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One challenge we have is that we can't block a flooder's JID based on IP
>>>>>> address. All we can do is report the flooder to its "home" server and
>>>>>> ask that server to disable the account or block future registrations
>>>>>> from that IP address. For this we need an incident handling protocol
>>>>>> <http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0268.html> and we need it to be widely
>>>>>> implemented and deployed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just chipping in here, speaking from many years experience in the anti-spam industry, it's perfectly acceptable to block the IP address in the even if it impacts other users. The general thought process is that the domain or IP range 'owner' is the responsible party because often it's not actually a 'user' but  a trojan or bot causing the problem so they need to clean up their network.
>>>>
>>>> We do this all the time on the IRC servers I help run for communities.
>>>> A flooder is taken thru 3 levels of blockage and a lot manage to get
>>>> thru 3 levels in under 5 minutes :)
>>>>
>>>> 1st violation - kicked from the server with a warning message
>>>> 2nd violation - kicked from the server and an entry is added to the
>>>> ban list - this keeps them from reconnecting for N days/hours
>>>> 3rd violation - all of the above and their IP address is added to the
>>>> ban list for good.  The message the get when refused connection
>>>> includes a link on how/why
>>>>
>>>> requires custom changes to get the different pieces interacting but
>>>> it's the only way to deal with it IMO
>>>
>>> XMPP isn't IRC. At jabber.org, we don't know the IP address of a user
>>> from example.com and even if we did the blockage would need to happen at
>>> example.com, not jabber.org.
>>>
>>> Distributed technologies are great, except when they're not.
>>>
>>
>> I don't understand the problem here, email is a distributed technology as well. Just use the JID's domain part. Look up example.com's SRV records in DNS, or from the S2S connection and block it at jabber.org. Same as email.
>>
>> Or am I having a Friday afternoon brain fade here, I must admit I haven't hit the beer yet so it's possible :)
>
> So we're going to block all 50,000 users at example.com because they
> have one bad user? I'd really really like to avoid that.
>

On a busy day at irc.twit.tv we have blocked entire geo regions
because of a handful of people controlling bots - hell I still think
we have a ban on entire region of China now.

Normally the bans or blocks are short term and we have also gotten
very good at identifying ranges of IPs when dealing with bot attacks
by comparing client information, but when it's a choice of the current
users being able to *use* the service and silencing the spammers - we
always go with silencing.

> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> https://stpeter.im/
>
>
>
>



-- 
Bear

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bear42 at gmail.com (xmpp, email)
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