[standards-jig] Re: [Foundation] streamlining the JIGs

dave at dave.tj dave at dave.tj
Tue Feb 26 03:15:03 UTC 2002

You may very well be right, for all I know, about the window of
opportunity not staying open forever.  However, none of our competing
protocols is advancing nearly as quickly as we are, so I think time is
on our side if we simply continue doing what we've been doing so far
(outrunning the competition).  If we start making drastic changes,
we may make more progress, or we may mess everything up.  I just don't
think it's worth taking the risk until we have much more to gain and
much less to lose (i.e., when we have more momentum).

Dave Cohen <dave at dave.tj>

BTW - If you'd spent a year leading a team and finally put together a
JEP, how'd you feel if the council decided not to approve the product
of your labor?  I know I'd feel as if I had wasted a year, and I'd
probably take out my frustration on some unfortunate guy, and that may
have adverse effects on Jabber's progress, since I'm one of several
thousand people actively attempting to advance Jabber, rather than one
of several hundred thousand (as in other IM systems).  Besides, the
council isn't going to notice many problems because _nobody_ is going
to notice them until _much_ later.  (There are a few curious "features"
of the current Jabber protocol that stem from fundamental decisions that
went the wrong way - I define the "wrong" way as the less flexible way.)

Iain Shigeoka wrote:
> On 2/25/02 1:27 PM, "Peter Saint-Andre" <stpeter at jabber.org> wrote:
> >> I really think we need two lists and one
> >> JIG.  Standards-discuss, standards-announce, and the Standards JIG.
> >> Standards-discuss being what is now standards-jig, and the announce list is
> >> read-only, low-traffic, for JEP announcements that Peter is doing and other
> >> significant Jabber announcements.
> > 
> > We can probably do this with two existing lists:
> > 
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/standards-jig/
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/news/
> Yup.  That's cool.  Just needs to be spelled out as part of the setup.
> >> 3.  On a vote in Standards JIG (standards-discuss) of no less than 3 days
> >> and no more than 7 days, a "tiger team" may be formed.  Votes are Apache
> >> style (+1,0,-1): you must have +1 or 0 from all voters who decide to vote.
> >> Any -1 vote will prevent the formation of the tiger team.  Voters must be
> >> standards-discuss subscribers and members of the Jabber Software Foundation.
> >> -1 votes will only be accepted if a reason is provided along with the vote.
> >> Tiger team creation votes are started by the proposed tiger team leader by
> >> posting a tiger team proposal to the discuss list which include the team
> >> name, its leader(s), goals (JEPs to create or issues to investigate), and
> >> schedule for accomplishing the goals.  Tiger teams may be disbanded by a
> >> vote of no confidence following the same voting procedure as tiger team
> >> formation.  A vote of no confidence may be called by any JSF member.
> >> 
> >> Tiger team
> >> 
> >> Only tiger teams may submit JEPs for approval by the council.
> > 
> > Arrgh, no! Too much process, IMHO. When a topic gets hot and heavy on the
> > standards-jig list, we'll just informally tell people to go off on their
> > own for a while (JaberStudio list, Yahoo Groups, I don't care where) and
> > come back when they've settled down. No vote, just "get lost for a while
> > and come back with results sometime". Besides, limiting JEP-submission to
> > these tiger teams goes against what is working now, which is much more
> > informal than that.
> Looks like I'm getting voted down on this idea.  :)  I'm a bit impatient
> with the current way things are occurring so this was my attempt at helping
> to drive things forward.  As Dave Cohen mentions though this could cause
> problems (although quality issues should be caught by the council before
> acceptance).  I agree there are risks with pushing things too fast but I
> think there is an equal danger in appearing to have stalled out.  There is a
> lot to be done and I have a feeling that the window of opportunity won't
> stay open forever.
> However, I'm more than willing to go with the group consensus here and try
> the less structured approach first.
> -iain
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