[Standards] Council Minutes 2020-03-18

Dave Cridland dave at cridland.net
Thu Mar 26 13:21:41 UTC 2020

On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 16:08, Tedd Sterr <teddsterr at outlook.com> wrote:

> http://logs.xmpp.org/council/2020-03-18?p=h#2020-03-18-d77f2f5c2e5ea3ba
> *1) Roll Call*
> Present: Daniel, Georg, Jonas, Zash
> Apologies: Dave
> *2) Agenda Bashing*
> Nothing to add.
> *3) Editor's Update*
> * ProtoXEP: Reminders
> * Expired calls: CFE on XEP-0184
> * Calls in progress: None
> *4a) Advance XEP-0184 (Message Delivery Receipts)* -
> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0184.html
> Georg considers some of the feedback to be 'very important' - Jonas agrees.
> Daniel is torn - it does what it's supposed to do, and is widely deployed,
> but has fallen behind the times.
> Zash thinks it's mostly fine, but some clarification never hurts.
> Georg is pretty sure the original authors are very busy, so it may be
> necessary to re-assign or find a Shepherd; suggests two potential ways
> forward: editorial clean-up and modernization without bumping, or 'the
> crazy multi-ACK namespace bump' - though Georg lacks the time to honestly
> promise to step up to do the first option. Daniel is against the latter
> option. Jonas is also against the latter, and would rather bump XEP-0333
> (Chat Markers) by mutating it to do multi-message ACKs - Georg thinks this
> would be rather weird, and it would be much more straightforward to add a
> new version to XEP-0184 (Message Delivery Receipts) plus server-side
> mux/demux compatibility.
> Georg would like to do the 0184 editing, but lacks the time, so if
> somebody wearing a fancy hat could remind him periodically, this might
> happen in a reasonable time-frame.
> The Editor will ping the authors, and then nag Georg if that doesn't work.
> Zash: [on-list] (will have to re-read that thread)
> Georg: -1 (to advance as-is)
> Daniel: -1 (suggest some minor clean-ups and then advance)
> Jonas: [on-list] (for now)
> Dave: [pending]
I thought a lot of the discussion was interesting and valuable, and I think
the spec is fundamentally ready for Final - even if we eventually might
update XEP-0333 to entirely obsolete it. So +1 to advance.

That said, I'm fully supportive of Daniel's wish to do some clean-up. I'm
rather against the idea that we should do anything dramatic though - the
simple fact is that the protocol works as advertised right now.

> *4b) Last Call: XEP-0280 (Message Carbons)* -
> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html
> Daniel doesn't expect this to yield different results to the last time.
> Jonas doesn't think 0280 should be modified any more, and efforts should
> focus on XEP-0409 (IM Routing-NG).
> Being the last one to touch it, Georg was told that "it contains payload
> elements typically used in IM" is not a strict definition of applicable
> payloads, and thus not implementable, also that there are still not enough
> implementations of 'urn:xmpp:carbons:rules:0'. Zash thinks XEP-0226
> (Message Stanza Profiles) could do with an update, and is meant to have the
> 'payload elements' definition.
> Georg thinks the lessons learnt from 0280 and 0313 (Message Archive
> Management) are very important for the transition to 0409 - Jonas concurs.
> Jonas: +1
> Georg: +1
> Zash: +1
> Daniel: +0
> Dave: [pending]
+1 - Finally!

> *4c) Last Call: XEP-0357 (Push Notifications)* -
> https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html
> Jonas thinks many people will have something something to say about this -
> Georg has reminded people to fix the XEP, but to no avail - Jonas thinks
> useful and specific on-list feedback would still be good.
> Jonas: +1
> Georg: +1 (hope it won't result in a pointless change-less -1 afterwards)
> Daniel: +1
> Zash: +1
> Dave: [pending]
Always happy to Last Call anything. +1

> *5) Outstanding Votes*
> Daniel votes +1 on advancing XEP-0402 (PEP Native Bookmarks).
> *6) Date of next*
> 2020-03-25 1600 UTC
> [Note: this remains one hour 'later' for those currently in DST, but will
> 'catch up' on the 29th.]
> *7) AOB*
> Georg asks the people voting less-than-one to the 0280 LC to elaborate on
> their reasoning, so it can be improved and moved forward. Daniel thinks
> that people see it as a dead-end, problematic XEP that hasn't changed much
> since last time - Georg doesn't see a viable (short-term) replacement, as
> 0409 will require a compatibility mode which will ultimately be the
> Carbon+MAM rules.
> Daniel wonders what can be done with XEPs which are known to be imperfect,
> but are currently the best available solution.
> Zash changes his vote on 0280 to +1 (noted in-line, above). Georg asks
> Zash to update 0226 - Zash would rather have simple, general rules that
> don't need to change too often, otherwise rolling out updates becomes
> painful; Georg points out that simple, general rules weren't defined when
> multi-device support was needed - Zash points out that some XEPs will
> eventually become outdated.
> *8) Close*
> Thanks all and everyone.
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