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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">BUT.. <br>
      <br>
      I think about different languages about chinese , thais.  If you
      make wrong word. (invalid word), you need correct this word with
      back.  <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Op 24/07/2012 17:31, Gregg Vanderheiden schreef:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1E48CEB4-4B63-4F31-921F-B23F2AD4DBCF@trace.wisc.edu"
      type="cite">I agree
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>the word by word is often brought up -- but never
        implemented.  It make little sense to add this here and confuse
        the discussion.  You can't do word by word without XEP-0301 ==
        and if doing XEP-0301 you can do   NT or WbWord or SbSentence or
        CbClause whatever you want.  But I would not get into discussing
        or mentioning them except to say that you can allow any of them
        as options in a client but should be on the receiving side as a
        preference.  </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Talking about doing word by word but sending fragments if
        person is slow etc is just confusing this standard.   Keep it
        simple I think. </div>
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                            -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
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                              class="Apple-style-span"
                              style="border-collapse: separate; color:
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                              <div style="word-wrap: break-word;
                                -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                                -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><i>Gregg</i><br>
                                <div>--------------------------------------------------------<br>
                                  Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.<br>
                                  Director Trace R&D Center<br>
                                  Professor Industrial & Systems
                                  Engineering<br>
                                  and Biomedical Engineering<br>
                                  University of Wisconsin-Madison<br>
                                </div>
                                <br>
                                Co-Director, Raising the Floor -
                                International<br>
                                and the Global Public Inclusive
                                Infrastructure Project<br>
                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://Raisingthefloor.org">http://Raisingthefloor.org</a>
                                  ---   <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://GPII.net">http://GPII.net</a></div>
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        <div>
          <div>On Jul 24, 2012, at 10:01 AM, Gunnar Hellström wrote:</div>
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              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2012-07-24 01:41, Mark
                Rejhon wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote
cite="mid:CAA79oD=DLY6KGPEuCJmv2poboAUJH5vTOiLFHM3BUYZ3J38CLA@mail.gmail.com"
                type="cite">
                <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 5:34
                  PM, Gunnar Hellström <span dir="ltr"><<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se"
                      target="_blank">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>></span>
                  wrote:<br>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
                      <div>On 2012-07-23 21:17, Mark Rejhon wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <div>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                            style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Example


                            1: I suggest that this could be better
                            demonstrated by not<br>
                            cutting at the word boundaries "He", "llo,
                            m", "y Juliet!" maybe, or<br>
                            something like that. Experience and/or
                            cynicism say that implementers<br>
                            are quite likely to look at the examples,
                            ignore the text, and<br>
                            misunderstand what's going on if the
                            examples provide convenient<br>
                            semantics not required by the protocol.</blockquote>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>[Comment]</div>
                          <div>I don't like this change.  Are you sure?
                               </div>
                          <div>In some earlier messages, I mentioned
                            that word transmission is <b>*greatly
                              preferable* </b>to broken-word
                            transmission.</div>
                          <div>Also, if an implementer misunderstands,
                            this detail is a more harmless
                            misunderstanding than broken-word
                            transmission.</div>
                          <div><br>
                          </div>
                          <div>There are other examples in the spec.</div>
                        </div>
                        <div>Comments welcome from people other than
                          Kevin and Gunnar -- I need more comments
                          because I have comments that they prefer this
                          Introduction, so I need to reconcile
                          conflicting advice about the Introductory
                          example.  XEP-0301 permits you to transmit
                          real-time text any way you want:
                          character-at-a-time, word-at-a-time, word
                          bursts, original typing intervals,
                          time-smoothed, etc.   The Introductory Example
                          is unable to demonstrate all of the possible
                          methods.  IMHO, I chose the 'safest'
                          introductory example.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Again, word transmission is greatly
                          preferable over broken-word transmission.
                           (There's been arguments in some accessibility
                          organizations in some countries, some say they
                          prefer keypress intervals, some prefer word
                          transmission instead of keypresses, etc.)   I
                          am talking to a guy from a telco in UK, and he
                          informed me of a political debate.  </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <div>Can at least a few more "outsiders"
                            comment on this change, please?  Thanks :-)</div>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                      I have also noticed occasional theoretical
                      discussions about word transmission instead of
                      real-time text. But that just introduces delays.
                      Long words can take long time to type on small
                      devices, and many times you have benefit of seeing
                      the word created in real-time so that you can keep
                      your mind in sync with the sender. <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>We discussed this before.  If a word takes longer
                    than usual to type, you just simply transmit
                    whatever the word is so far.  It will cause
                    occasional broken words for those times that people
                    take a long time to compose a word.   But that's
                    OK. </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Even if it
                      could be mentioned somewhere, the spec is about
                      real-time text, and the first example, showing the
                      very basic features shall also show a realistic
                      example of transmitting real-time text. Not
                      word-by-word.<br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I disagree. There are implementers demanding word
                    transmission.  </div>
                  <div>Your edit is rejected unless there's lots of
                    demand (i.e. 5 people publicly agreeing with you
                    with no further disagreements in the mailing list)</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Word-by-word
                      also have the risk of delaying the last typed word
                      from being transmitted. It must have some
                      inactivity timeout and transmit whatever is typed
                      if the user just stops typing at the end of a word
                      without any space or punctuation mark. In order to
                      not interfere with slow typing, a timeout should
                      likely be in the order of 7 seconds. That is an
                      unfortunate extra delay in these circumstances.<br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>That is not a problem, if you have a time limit
                    for word composition (i.e. 1 second transmission
                    interval, and reset the transmission interval
                    everytime you hit the spacebar.  So that words come
                    out very quickly, with no delays more than 1 second)</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                    .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                    <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">Please accept
                      the proposals for the first example being a
                      real-time text example.</div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I need comments from several people.  There are
                    people (some of Darren Sturman's colleagues) who
                    would disagree with you.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Thank you,<br>
                    Mark Rejhon </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              The word-by word issue is a theoretical one that has been
              up for discussion in the real-time text area occasionally
              through the years. ( especially in UK, I do not know why.
              ) I am not aware of any implementation or investigation
              that has shown that it has any benefit over Natural Typing
              or time smoothing. Even if you say that there is demand
              for word-by word, it should not be allowed to confuse the
              readers in the first example of a real-time text standard.
              <br>
              <br>
              I propose that you follow the advice and do real-time text
              in the first example. <br>
              <br>
              Please note that no explanations around example one says
              that it is intentionally made on word boundaries. It would
              be more logical to mention it in the text among
              implementation notes in chapter 6, and let the
              specification start with explaining the main
              implementation.<br>
              <br>
              And, in fact word-by-word is mentioned in 6.1.4. It is not
              under a heading that would make you find it easily. You
              may change the heading or divide the section in two if you
              want it to be more visible.<br>
              <br>
              Gunnar  <br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
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