[JDEV] Single Sign-on and stuff
mhearn at mailandnews.com
Sun Oct 7 08:28:51 CDT 2001
OK, to address a few criticisms of the proposals:
> I have huge problems using cookies for authentication purposes of any
> kind. Why couldn't I capture your cookie and be you? If I got into your
> machine, what would stop me from using your cookies?
Then don't use them. Cookies are entirely optional if you look carefully -
all they are used for is speeding up the login process by allowing sites to
remember your network address, and for the authentication site, the
credentials (which would be encrypted so only the authentication site could
read them btw). If you don't wish to have your credentials stored, then
simply uncheck the "Remember Me" options on the relevant sites: tada, no
cookies. You have to re-enter your credentials each time which is a bit of a
pain, but you do get the increased security.
first, as it is more likely. If for instance I sat down at somebodies
computer while they were signed in, what would I realistically be able to
achieve? If we assume that the user has visited a negligent site that has
not encrypted its cookies, I would be able to determine the persons username
by reading the cookie list in Mozilla/IE or whatever. I would not be able to
determine the users password, because it's encrypted. I could copy the
cookie from one computer to another manually, in which case the machine
would have been "ghosted". Here's one way the amount of damage this could do
could be limited:
The first time you visit the sign-in page, a counter is initialised to some
random number (maybe taken from the time), and hashed with the credentials
and stored. The counter is saved in the users account. Next time you visit
the sign in page (which will happen even if all your credentials are stored:
bear in mind that visiting xyz.com will always redirect you to the sign in
page once you've signed in once with xyz.com) , the credentials are read
from the cookie and checked against the counter. If they match, the counter
is incremented, and the credentials are rehashed, and the cookie reset. Now
let's assume that somebody steals a sign-in cookie. As soon as that cookie
is used to sign in to a site, it's invalidated. So if the real user attempts
to sign in again, they'll receive a message saying that the cookies have
become desynchronized or whatever, and the user is automatically logged out.
The only way forward is to represent your credentials over an SSL link, and
sign in all over again. Of course, if the real user is the first to visit
another page that supports SSI, then the stolen cookie is invalidated and
the thief gets nowhere.
This is not a perfect system of course, and if the thief is first then they
can sign in using somebody elses cookie. But these weaknesses could apply to
any sign in system on the net today. In fact, we've already got an imperfect
SSI implementation in place today: on most sites, if you forget your
password you can have it emailed to you. So really the only password that
truly matters is your email password, which is often transmitted in the
clear anyway. Where are all the evil hackers stealing email passwords and
using that to sign in to Amazon under other peoples names?
> > _Arbitrary services_
> > We will use the example of a jabber aware FTP server and client for this
> > 1. User connects to jabber-aware FTP server using jabber aware client
> 2. User gives client username and credentials (password, certificate,
> I capture the credentials.
Using what, a keyboard sniffer? Fine - any security system is vunerable to
this sort of attack. I don't see your point.
> I was going to type in RFC1510 here. Here is a link
> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1510.txt .
> The big concept I want to drive home here is that no passwords or other
> relevant pieces of information that could be stolen to impersonate
> someone are sent over the wire. We really should consider that when
> creating an authentication protocol. Tell me why I am wrong.
Not having credentials sent over the wire significantly increases complexity
and reduces usability. If we did this, we'd end up with Kerberos. Show me
where the millions of people using Kerberos are. They aren't there, and they
aren't there for good reasons: it doesn't work on the web. It also requires
clients to be especially written, special servers to be set up, and is not
properly supported on Windows (it doesn't exist in Win9x, it exists in a
broken and MS specific form on Windows 2000).
OK, this has turned into a rant, for which I apologise, but a rant it will
be. I see this all the time: developers sacrificing usability for security,
in the mistaken belief that black hats will tear people to pieces unless
it's 100% impenetrable. Not true. At the end of the day, SSI is about
convenience. I'd like to use one password to sign in to all my websites and
yes in the future FTP servers and other things too. I'd like to type in my
username and password once, and then for the network to remember all this
and not prompt me again. This opens the system up to abuse of course, even
if it's just my little brother sitting down at the keyboard while I'm out of
the room and looking at my eGroups preferences. But I'm willing to accept
less security for more convenience, and many other people are too. It's a
compromise at the end of the day between the ultra-tight security of
Kerberos and a real world implementation that's easy to use and develop for.
I stick by it.
mhearn at neuk.net
Jabber (jabber.org) tweedledee at jabber.org
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