[Standards-JIG] Re: WHACK

Mridul Muralidharan mridul at sun.com
Wed Apr 26 17:26:35 UTC 2006


Hi,

  Just to get my thoughts in order about this discussion :
Sending of whack's is just to get around tcp implementation issues right ?
What I mean is , there is no way to correlate which stanza's were 
received at the server (or the client) end given that sender received a 
whack.
The only thing we are ensuring is that there is a high possibility that 
all packets sent until 'x' seconds ago were received (and possibly 
processed) by the server.

So essentially ,  if you really want reliable messaging , you will have 
to use end-to-end acknowledgment : whack's and whing's (cool names btw 
:-) ) are just a way to keep the socket alive and detect its 'death'.

If the server's and client's already use whitespace pings , I really 
dont see what can be gained by whacks.
If I am right in my assumptions above , you dont need to whack 
everything - only if no packet were transmitted to the sender in 
previous 'x' seconds : this would reduce n/w usage.


Regards,
Mridul

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

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>Chatting with Kevin Smith of the Psi project has, as usual, given me a
>new perspective.
>
>There are really two things here:
>
>1. Reliability
>
>2. Accountability
>
>Everyone wants reliability: they want to know that their messages (and
>other stanzas) will be delivered all the time. But not everyone wants
>accountability: they don't necessarily want another party to know when
>they received a message.
>
>JEP-0184 addresses the accountability issue, but if it is used for
>reliability then it automatically includes accountability, which normal
>users don't like.
>
>So what we need is a way to do acknowledgements without necessarily
>including accountability.
>
>Justin's "stanza acking" proposal [1] does this, but in a rather heavy
>fashion -- all those extra <a/> elements (seemingly top-level!), pings
>and pongs, etc.
>
>Kevin mentioned to me an alternative approach, which he swears is also
>Justin's idea -- whitespace acks (since I like fun names for things, I
>dub these "whacks"). Whenever an entity receives a stanza, it sends one
>whitespace character ("whack") to the immediate sender. So my previous
>flow would be as follows:
>
>1. My client sends a stanza (intended for you) to my server.
>
>2. My server sends a whack to my client.
>
>3. My server routes the stanza to your server.
>
>4. Your server sends a whack to my server.
>
>5. Your server routes the stanza to your client.
>
>6. Your client sends a whack to your server.
>
>One nice thing about this is that it doesn't require any changes to the
>core protocol, since entities are allowed to send whitespace between
>stanzas (in fact whitespace pings -- whings? -- are a subset of whacks).
>
>Another nice thing is that it's easy to implement.
>
>For this to reliably add reliability to the network, everything would
>need to support it. But that's true of stanza acking in general. You
>could disco your conversation partners and the in-between servers to
>know if they support it. And it's got to be something that you can't
>turn off, it's just there.
>
>In fact, this has a real Jer feeling to it. It's the kind of hack he
>would have built in at the very beginning. :-)
>
>Thoughts?
>
>/psa
>
>[1] http://www.jabber.org/jeps/inbox/ack.html
>
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