- Standards

by Schimon Jehudah

Good day. Please create "development" (or "jdev") and "general" (or "talk") mailing-lists. I sense that these are required. DEVELOPMENT ----------- I have many questions about XMPP development and concerns that are indirectly related to XMPP. I urgently need to have a mailing-list for development, as most of my questions aer not directly related to standard. GENERAL ------- A general mailing-list be useful to converse of any other concern, including welcoming people who have interest in XMPP, of any sort. Kind regards, Schimon

7 hours, 18 minutes

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RFC 6121 section 8.5 "active resource" and "Connected Resource"

by Guus der Kinderen

Hi, Section 8.5.4 provides a summary of earlier sections. It uses the term "active resource" twice. This term is not used in any of the earlier sections. Conversely, the earlier sections use the term "Connected Resource" a couple of times. A "Connected Resource" is defined by RFC6121/6120 as "[has] bound a resource to the stream" Although the term "Connected Resource" is used in section 8.5, none of the specifications therein seem to apply to Connected Resources. The usage of the term "active resource" in section 8.5.4 could be an artifact of RFC3921/3920, which defines an "active resource" as: "Upon establishing a session, a connected resource (in the terminology of [XMPP-CORE]) is said to be an "active resource." Although section 8.5 advertises that it will define how stanzas related to connected resources are to be processed ("If there is at least one available resource or connected resource, how the stanza is processed depends on the stanza type.") it does not seem to do that. All definitions seem to depend on having at least one available resource (which is defined as a connected resource that has sent initial presence), leaving scenarios in which only connected resources are present, undefined. Am I misinterpreting this? If not, is this something that should be cleared up (or explicitly be left undefined)? As a practical example of a question that I believe is left unanswered: How should a server process a message stanza of type 'normal', addressed to a bare JID that represents a local user (the scenario of section 8.5.2.1.1 of RFC 6121) if the corresponding user only has one or more Connected Resources (but not any Available Resources)? I believe that there are many possible variations on this question, I'm limiting it to one to illustrate the larger issue that I described in this email. For additional context: this was discussed in the XSF's Discussion MUC earlier. Logs of that conversation can be found at https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2025-05-28#2025-05-28-a5d887bd6428222c Kind regards, Guus

9 hours, 39 minutes

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Advise for HTTP framework

by Schimon Jehudah

Good evening. I intend to create a ptivate publishing system (i.e. journal) which is based upon Atom Over XMPP (XEP-0277 and XEP-0472), and which would interact with Libervia and Movim. I usually utilize FastAPI, yet I would want to know of other possible frameworks which you think that might be more preferable for that task. Reference: https://git.xmpp-it.net/sch/Rivista Kind regards, Schimon.

3 days, 2 hours

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Moderating PubSub

by Schimon Jehudah

Good day, to one and all. I am considering to utilize a PubSub service as a public discussion board; and, as a public discussion board, it should be free for all. I was wondering whether an approval or other type of moderation mechanism is specified for PubSub. Kind regards, Schimon

3 days, 2 hours

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XEP-0115: Mismatched 'node' attribute value when detecting capabilities

by Guus der Kinderen

Hi all, This follows a discussion the XSF's Standards Discussion MUC. Logs start at https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2025-05-18 (and continue into the next days). XEP-0115: Entity Capabilities describes how capabilities from the "generating entity" can be discovered by a "requesting entity" in section 6.2. To do this, the "requesting entity" sends a disco#info request (that MUST include a disco 'node' attribute for backwards-compatibility). The 'node' attribute value is generated in a way that results in an application-specific value that will be specific to the application that generated the string as well as the capabilities that are currently advertised by that application. What the XEP does not describe, is what is to happen when the requesting entity uses in their request a 'node' attribute value that is different from what the generating entity would produce (given its current configuration). Since providing the value, the generating entity could have undergone configuration changes making available a different set of capabilities, thus making the original value outdated. The XEP is improved by explicitly describing this scenario, by defining what should happen when a requesting entity uses a conflicting 'node' attribute value. I can think of a number of options: 1. If the 'node' attribute value sent by the requesting entity is recognized by the generating entity as a valid value in some context (eg: a value that represents an earlier state of offered capabilities), the generating entity could respond with the corresponding capabilities. Downsides: the requesting entity may take this as an indication that this represents the _current_ capabilities of the requesting entity, when that may not be the case. This approach can't be used if the generating entity does not recognize the value 2. The request could be answered with an error (eg: item-not-found). Downside: the requesting entity, that only performs this request because it's interested in the current capabilities of the generating entity, needs to do another round trip to get the answers it is looking for. 3. The request could be answered with a response in which the generating entity uses the new/up-to-date 'node' attribute value (it explicitly does not echo back the value that was in the request). Downside: there is a potential backwards compatibility issue for existing implementations that currently use another approach. They may end up mismatching 'node' attribute values and associated capabilities. Given the wording in section 6.2, specifically the definition that the requesting entity is to include the 'node' attribute for backwards compatibility, seems to suggest that the responding entity may not have a need for this value. That, to me, suggests that option 3 is most appropriate. I suggest that section 6.2 of XEP-0115 is modified to include an explicit description of option 3. The backwards-incompatibility issues are arguably existing only because of unspecified behavior. I do not see how such issues would be significantly affecting functionality. As the XEP is currently in state Stable, backwards incompatible changes are allowable. Thoughts? Kind regards, Guus

2 weeks, 2 days

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mailing list move

by Peter Saint-Andre

We're in the midst of moving this email discussion list from one server to another. You might be asked to re-confirm your subscription. Peter

1 month

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Threads and replies in XMPP

by Goffi

Hello, We've got a discussion about thread on xsf@ a couple of days ago, and I would like to bring it here. I initially thought that XEP-0461 (Message Replies) was redundant with threads, except in the case where there is no thread ID in the message a user wants to reply too. After discussion, notably with singpolyma and lovetox, it appears that we don't have the same view on this. The way I got it, we have basically 2 ways to see threads: 1. A series of replies to any message in a group chat, à la Slack (in Slack, you see the replies hidden under parent message, with something like "X replies", and when you click, a panel appear with the whole thread. 2. A side discussion explicitly started, that could be seen like a new chat window (UI example: user clicks a "start a new thread button", and start a blank window with it message, this message has a new thread ID, that will be used by people replying to it). In case 1, the parent message needs a thread ID so that thread can continue with the same ID. Problem is if parent message doesn't has a thread ID (because client doesn't support thread, or because there is no thread ID for each message), in this case a XEP-0461 "reply to" can be used, then the first reply has a new thread ID, and the thread can continue. In case 2, the explicitly started thread has a newly generated thread ID, so there is no problem. I want to support both 1 and 2. For 1, my initial reading of XEP-0201 (Best Practices for Message Threads) was that a new thread ID should be generated for each message: > Unless a <message/> stanza is written in direct reply to another <message/> > stanza, if a ThreadID is included then its value SHOULD be newly generated > when a human user initiates a chat conversation with another user (i.e., a > <message/> stanza of type 'chat'), starts a new conversation in the context > of a multi-user chat environment (i.e., a <message/> stanza of type > 'groupchat'), or sends a normal message. XEP-0201 §3.2. But after discussion, I realise that it's not requested to generate a new ID each time, and it seems that generating new thread ID for each message would be a problem for some clients (notably Cheogram which would create a thread UI for each ID). The solution would be to use "reply to" from XEP-0461, then a newly generated thread ID. I've also proposed an alternative when parent message ID could be used as thread ID, this may we can find parent message without relying on XEP-0461. For the moment, I think that I won't generate new thread ID for each message, and if I create a thread from a parent message I'll use a XEP-0461 "reply to" and generate a new thread ID, then use this thread ID for following message in this thread. However, I would like to have feedback from the wider community: - how to you handle or plan to handle threads? - Are you planning to implement case 1 (threads can be started from any message) and/or case 2 (threads are explicitly started)? - How would you handle case 1? Thanks! Best, Goffi

1 month

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A proposal to update XEP-0372: References

by Schimon Jehudah

Good day. Last week, I have contacted various of projects and asked to render messages with XMPP URI by their particular context. Please refer to the Gemini page or see the attached file for references. gemini://woodpeckersnest.space/~schapps/journal/2025-04-24-rendering-xmpp-uri-by-context.gmi After communicating this information to nephele, the developer of Renga chat client for Haiku, he has advised to standartize this approach by adding a new attribute to XEP-0372. Sun 27 Apr 2025 06:03:34 PM - nephele: > The XEP 0372 as it exists now seems to almost hit what you want, maybe > only another type is needed. for example <reference xmlns='urn:xmpp:reference:0' begin='72' end='78' type='adhoc' uri='xmpp:nephele@xmpp.org?command'/> Please advise. Kind regards, Schimon

1 month

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XEP-0424/0425/0461: Spec misses guidance which ID should be used in case of corrections

by Philipp Hörist

Hi, All these XEPs miss a paragraph how corrections should be handled correctly e.g. if the ID of the original message or of the correction should be used. This leads already to different implementations in popular clients, none of which can be considered wrong as the XEPs do not specify a correct handling. Regards Philipp

1 month, 1 week

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URI Query Types for Ad-Hoc Commands and Data Forms

by Schimon Jehudah

Good day. I am the developer of Slixfeed news bot. Data Forms are extensively utilized by that bot. I think that it would be beneficial to define IRI/URI to acess to Ad-Hoc Commands and Data Forms. == Ad-Hoc Commands == This IRI/URI would open the form "manual". xmpp:slixfeed@xmpp.org?command=help This IRI/URI would open the form "about". xmpp:slixfeed@xmpp.org?command=about == Data Forms == Provided that a Data Form has an identifier, this IRI/URI would open the about dialog for the given query. This IRI/URI would open the form "about" (same as of the example of the Ad-Hoc Command, which can lead to the same form by explicitly define it). xmpp:slixfeed@xmpp.org?form=about-start This IRI/URI would open the form "about" in the next form to form about-start with the value "thanks". xmpp:slixfeed@xmpp.org?form=about-result?payload=thanks Please advise. Kind regards, Schimon

1 month, 1 week

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