[Foundation] voting update

Michael Bauer bauer at michaelbauer.com
Tue Mar 12 11:52:57 CST 2002


I fully expect to be castigated for this proposal.  I fully expect no one 
to support me in calling for this vote.  I fully expect to even be 
ostracized by some that of you from whom your respect means a great deal 
to me.  

I am willing to accept all of this to make some very clear points.  One, I 
take Membership in this organization very seriously.  While requirements 
for Membership does not have a formal checklist associated with it, at 
some level, it's pretty simple - do something.  Help out others.  Give 
something back.  Simply doing things to build a business does not 
constitute giving something back.

Two, because I take this seriously, I think there should be consequences 
to inaction.  Those consequences typically range in severity from a little 
isolated chastisement to a little group banging.  For those that have 
consistently in my view not given anything back and have consistently 
strove to find fault without offering any solution I decided to take this 
to its most extreme and make this proposal.  Perhaps my simply making this 
proposal is enough to start getting something back to help the community.  
I doubt it, but I'm willing to try.

Three, and this has alway bugged me, THIS IS NOT AN OLD BOYS CLUB.  If it 
was, then I'd have Peter and DJ and temas and everyone else rallying 
around me and supporting me in the vote.  That is not the case.  Both 
publicly and privately, I have been chided for making this suggestion.  No 
one has come to my defense.  No one has supported me in this.  So I hope 
this once and for all demonstrates clearly this is not the case.  I wonder 
if my possibly throwing away all respect that I may have earned in helping 
start this Foundation, drafted the Jabber Open Source License, and create 
the Jabber Powered branding program might possibly convince some of you 
otherwise.


On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

> Hey Michael, even in jest such a suggestion is out of line.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --
> Peter Saint-Andre
> email+jabber: stpeter at jabber.org
> weblog: http://www.saint-andre.com/blog/
> 
> On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Michael Bauer wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Under Section 3.12 of the By-Laws of the Jabber Software Foundation, I am 
> > calling for additional members to join me in forming a bloc of 5% of the 
> > Membership to call for a full vote of the current Membership; the
> > intention of this full vote would be to attain a 2/3 majority under 
> > Section 2.5 of the By-Laws of the Jabber Software Foundation to remove all 
> > members of sltsCommunications from membership in the Jabber Software 
> > Foundation.
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, Terry Smelser wrote:
> > 
> > > >I really hate to be infammatory -- but what exactly have you guys done
> > > >for the *Foundation* community beyond write a book and work on closed
> > > >source clients?
> > > 
> > > I wasn't refering to the FOUNDATION as a community, remember, I think it's a
> > > "good ole boys club". I refer to Jabber and only Jabber as a community.
> > > What have we done for Jabber?   Instead of me pointing that out....why don't
> > > you look?  And keep looking, the release of our book will bring about
> > > several changes in our setup here. Things that will benefit the entire
> > > JABBER community...we hope anyway ( prolly won't do a thing for the "good
> > > ole boys club", but was never ment to)
> > > 
> > > 
> > > No we don't write a lot to any of the threads.... we found out right after
> > > the beginnings of the Foundation, when we were pushing  for the resolution
> > > of  some issues, (that are still unresolved)  that our input, our PUSHING,
> > > was not welcome. We were ask to "stop rocking the boat", in open forum,
> > > mailing lists and in private email (yes I still have copies of  all of it).
> > > Foundation email is a source of information to me (and us) and that, you can
> > > never have enough of.
> > > 
> > > So fine, it does not  bother any of us here to be the black sheep, we kind
> > > of enjoy it. We have continued to work on our clients, build custom clients,
> > > write a book on the setup and configuration of open source Jabber servers
> > > and the design of OPEN source client software as well. We have pushed OUR
> > > client first, and ANY Jabber client next. ( this is only fair and good for
> > > business). I have written countless articles and letters about switching
> > > users to Jabber and away from the big guys networks,  etc.. etc..  I will do
> > > more and anything I can think of to promote "Jabber" and it's use. Again,
> > > while I always push myJabber for windows, would you care to guess what I
> > > push for Linux/Unix? :-) Only the best for my customers and users....
> > > 
> > > So what have I done for the Foundation? What I was ask to do... I shut up.
> > > 
> > > > I'm looking forward to your email about the copyright problems.
> > > 
> > > Unless I am instructed to do so by slts, I will not address the issue,
> > > (other than to be sure WE don't take a hit) I tried in the very beginning,
> > > all of us did. I simply do not have time to work where I am not wanted and
> > > it was made clear to us that we were NOT welcome.
> > > 
> > > Jabber on the other hand has been kinder to me and I to it.
> > > 
> > >  I think this statement goes for all of us here at slts, if it don't you can
> > > be SURE I will hear about it in the morning.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Terry Smelser
> > > System Specialist
> > > sltsCommunications
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Julian Missig" <julian at jabber.org>
> > > To: <members at jabber.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:54 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation] voting update
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Mon, 2002-03-11 at 22:35, Terry Smelser wrote:
> > > > > And this has what to do with the fact that drivel is drivel??  It occurs
> > > to
> > > > > me that while a little bit of color is harmless and perhaps even useful,
> > > > > some of us just don't have the time for it.  I have been getting PILES
> > > of
> > > > > foundation mail here as of late, little of it has been worth the drive
> > > space
> > > > > it consumes.
> > > >
> > > > Looking through the most recent mails, I only see a handful which I
> > > > would consider useless. Most of them seem to be people trying to sort
> > > > out problems... and I think we're arriving at the core of the
> > > > foundation's current problems.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   And NO I would not consider removing myself from the lists, because
> > > just
> > > > > by accident, something that I might really want to read may come though.
> > > The
> > > > > Foundation, so far, has taken on all of the qualities of a "good ole
> > > boys
> > > > > club" and not much else.
> > > > >
> > > > > Example:
> > > > >
> > > > >  We here at slts (myJabber) do NOT use the Powered by Jabber logos,
> > > there is
> > > > > a copyright violation involved in using them. It was and IS the
> > > foundation's
> > > > > position to resolve that issue. Instead, the leadership of it (in this
> > > case
> > > > > YOU) has seen fit to reprimand a member for stating his opinion, while
> > > > > defending others for stating theirs. Or at least exercising their right
> > > to
> > > > > free speech.
> > > >
> > > > So bring up your issues with the trademark and copyright in the thread!
> > > > The reason the discussion on it has fizzled is because no one has said
> > > > anything about it. Jabber, Inc. is not going to start bringing up
> > > > problems on its own, you guys need to talk about them.
> > > >
> > > > If you have so many problems with the copyrights and leadership of the
> > > > foundation, where did you make these problems known? I haven't seen
> > > > anywhere near as much noise from @sltscommunications.net email addresses
> > > > for any other thread. In fact, I don't see a single email from any of
> > > > you on the "Jabber (TM)" thread -- and you claim that is one of your
> > > > problems.
> > > >
> > > > *If you have issues with the leadership or copyright issues, make noise
> > > > about it.* Not random noise just whining about it like I am sometimes
> > > > guilty of doing -- make a logical, well-drawn argument for your point.
> > > > Mike Lin does this very well (sometimes too well ;) ).
> > > >
> > > > And I'm really clueless about this "reprimand[ing] a member for stating
> > > > his opinion" -- could someone please point me to this?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's get on the ball here and resolve a few issues that affect all of
> > > us,
> > > > > instead of an issue that involved ONE person.
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking forward to your email about the copyright problems.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have NO doubt that Peter and DJ have contributed an amazing amount to
> > > the
> > > > > Jabber Community; in fact I am quite sure of it.  I have received a lot
> > > of
> > > > > help, both directly and indirectly from both of them. AND from a lot of
> > > > > other guys that are not perhaps as high profile as these two. A lot of
> > > us
> > > > > have contributed in many ways, Steve Lee and I wrote a book that will
> > > > > release next week, (Hungry Minds)  I can't wait to get a chance to Read
> > > DJ's
> > > > > book, But we at slts can achieve more in a part time afternoon, (we
> > > still
> > > > > have jobs) than frankly the foundation has achieved  from the time of
> > > it's
> > > > > inception.
> > > >
> > > > I really hate to be infammatory -- but what exactly have you guys done
> > > > for the *Foundation* community beyond write a book and work on closed
> > > > source clients? I have spent time trying to move the foundation forward.
> > > > I like to think I'm partially responsible for the recent boom in number
> > > > of JEPs, and I continue to work on more. I'm pushing to get the Council
> > > > to actually vote on these JEPs, as stpeter can attest to.
> > > >
> > > > > Never the less, we are either a community or we are not. Most of us are
> > > > > treating this as a business now days, we don't have time for drivel,
> > > > > regardless of WHO is responsible for it.
> > > >
> > > > Fine, but this is still about fun for me.
> > > >
> > > > Julian
> > > > --
> > > > email: julian at jabber.org
> > > > jabber:julian at jabber.org
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Members mailing list
> > > > Members at jabber.org
> > > > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > > >
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Members mailing list
> > > Members at jabber.org
> > > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Michael Bauer        me at michaelbauer.com       http://www.michaelbauer.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Members mailing list
> > Members at jabber.org
> > http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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Michael Bauer        me at michaelbauer.com       http://www.michaelbauer.com




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