[Foundation] JSF == Jabber Standards Foundation?

Harold E. Gottschalk Jr. heg at imissary.com
Tue May 27 13:24:13 CDT 2003


Your response below represents exactly why I have such distorted
perceptions of the Foundation leadership.  Prior to the last election No
person was interested in the board, I helped you get that election
interest going and not many individuals were very interested.  At OSCON
2002 I asked the members that were there what they wanted most and they
wanted a standards like org, my position was to move more towards
software.  When we got the position papers out, then some pre-members
(before JSF) that were not extremely interested, decided to run and
based on popularity and were spoilers and got elected, yet most of the
BOD was inactive and 2 of those inactive were re-elected. IMO

I would take you up on your offer to run again, but that would not be of
great value to me nor JSF since my views are less then congruent with
the core populous of the organization. I will in the future be reducing
my participation in this organization since I am committed to solutions
and case examples of the technology then the protocol.  JabberCollab.org
is where I will be spending my extra cycles in the future.

My answer to Tony needs to be reiterated given your reply below:

I feel that if you license the software as BSD and you implement the
reference components the Open IM community can concentrated on using the
components that will be certified to work with each other and build
their differentiation on how their software implements a solution with
the reference software and protocol.  This would allow for quicker
implementation of XMPP/Jabber solutions, instead of spending resource
implementing the protocol all over again.

I think that my position would allow for a stronger community, because
sponsors would get a more tangible value from the foundation then just
an influence on the protocol.

But I am more interested in solving problems then selling servers and

Peter Thank you for your untiring dedication to JSF I do appreciate it
even though I do not agree with your position  too often.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-admin at jabber.org 
> [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org] On Behalf Of Peter Saint-Andre
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 10:01 AM
> To: members at jabber.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation] JSF == Jabber Standards Foundation?
> On Thu, May 22, 2003 at 10:58:36AM -0700, Harold E. 
> Gottschalk Jr. wrote:
> > I am against this change 200%.
> >
> > My personal opinion is that we have not gotten the traction needed 
> > because we do not have a reference piece of software.  I would hope 
> > one day we move away from just this notion of being a standards 
> > organization and produce an piece of software that we are 
> willing to 
> > stand behind.
> And then the JSF will directly compete with all manner of 
> companies who are involved in the Jabber community. What's 
> the point of that? IMHO, the Jabber community has taken 
> open-source to the next level by building an 
> open protocol that encourages both open-source and commercial 
> work. That is a strength and something that sets us apart. 
> Having the JSF become a 
> software project like Apache would be a move in precisely the 
> wrong direction. What software do we develop? Servers? 
> Clients? Libraries? For which platforms? Not only don't I see 
> that as core to the JSF's mission, but I think it would be 
> destructive of the community we've created.
> > I am of the opinion that the reason it has been driven as a 
> standard 
> > org is due to the fact of Jabber, Inc is selling Jabber 
> software and 
> > not to take sales away from Jinc.  Jinc did create the foundation, 
> > Jinc personnel wrote and design the foundation not to compete with 
> > them.
> I've heard a number of conspiracy theories over the last few 
> years in the Jabber community, but this one is new. Shall we 
> review some history? Jabber began in the innovative mind of 
> Jeremie Miller, and he released this idea into the world on 
> January 4, 1999. Server and client projects sprang up in the 
> open-source community, and through a rapid design and 
> development process those projects developed a workable 
> system for real time communications based on XML streams. As 
> part of that work, the core team developed a wire protocol 
> for streaming XML, mainly for the purpose of instant 
> messaging and presence. (Note: this was all before JINC was 
> founded in the spring of 2000.) In the early days, the 
> open-source server was called "the Jabber server" and when 
> people referred to Jabber they were referring to that server. 
> However, it was never Jeremie's intention to prevent others 
> from writing Jabber servers. Over time we have worked to 
> decouple that particular implementation from the concept of 
> Jabber in general, which is why it was renamed jabberd (hey, 
> it's not that different, but it is different -- I still like 
> the "Jabelin" name we were kicking around). At the same time, 
> the Jabber community was getting bigger and bigger, and we 
> found that we needed a public process for adding to and 
> extending the wire protocol. We did not want JINC to 
> effectively fork or control the protocol, which is why we set 
> up the foundation (with much input from jer, temas, dizzyd, 
> me, pgm, etc.). 
> JINC provided the initiative and money to create the JSF. 
> Why? Because it recognized that we needed to have a public, 
> objective process for managing the protocol, and not have 
> JINC do one extension, Tipic some other extension, and Antepo 
> a third. That would have led to serious problems of 
> interoperability, which would have been evil. So JINC decided 
> to do the right thing by opening up the process and funding a 
> forum for working on the protocol, standardizing usage, 
> developing compliance tests, and so on. By the way, focusing 
> on the protocol also has given space to competitors of JINC 
> to create software that complies with the protocol. 
> Personally, I think this has worked out great. We now have 
> companies like Antepo, Tipic, Jive Software, Winfessor, 
> Movial, mov, and many others developing software in a dynamic 
> community that contains both open-source projects and 
> commercial software developers. The Jabber community is not 
> for open-source bigots, because we are open to code that is 
> public and code that is private. This is part of the strength 
> of the Jabber community. Making the JSF into a true software 
> project a la Apache would mean that those commercial entities 
> would no longer be welcome -- why they fund their own 
> competition? It's true that JINC could not justify funding 
> its own competition (could you justify that to your company's 
> Board?), but it's also true that managing the protocol in an 
> open fashion has opened the door to the involvement and 
> contributions of many companies, not just one. It just 
> happens that JINC was first. That's the landscape in which we 
> find ourselves. I hate to break it to you, but that's one of 
> the brutal realities of doing business in the Jabber 
> community. No one is forcing you or anyone else to work in 
> this niche. Would it be nice if JINC were called something 
> else? Sure it would. Have I made that argument before? Sure I 
> have. Is that brutal reality likely to change anytime soon? 
> No. Reality is not always the way we would like it to be. I'm sorry.
> > They had the right to create what they wanted, but now it is our 
> > choice to continue down that road or not.  I would prefer to not go 
> > down that road at all!  The board is still made up of a majority of 
> > individuals that have worked or are working for Jabber Inc.
> And two of those individuals were "let go" in ways that 
> probably give them (more than you or anyone else on this 
> list) an axe to grind. The fact is that the current Board was 
> democratically elected by the members of the corporation. If 
> you don't like the make-up of the current Board, run for 
> election again next year on the platform of eliminating JINC 
> employees or former employees from the Board. Maybe you and 
> your slate 
> will get elected and then you can remove this pernicious 
> influence from 
> our midst.
> --stpeter
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