[standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects

Yann Klis yklis at kaliasys.com
Tue Jan 13 11:08:27 UTC 2004


Very interesting links.
But, my main question was more about standardisation in the Jabber
community for this kind of problem.
Is the 19th of january mystery about that ?

yk

Le mar 13/01/2004 à 12:05, Ulrich Staudinger a écrit :
> In fact the jabber community even has an AVTaskForce but the whole 
> discussion went into nirvana sometime ....
> I experimented with all this stuff in e2 
> (http://complat.sourceforge.net) and e3 has voice chatting (but only in 
> a very rudimentary implementation - 
> http://complat.sourceforge.net/jnlp/index.php ).
> 
> what i may say, it's not only voip ...
> 
> CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN wrote:
> 
> >I am glad you found answers to your questions. I will now wait also for the 19th ... I was not aware that someone else (Ulrich) was working on VoIP over Jabber ...
> >
> >David
> >
> >-----Message d'origine-----
> >De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
> >Envoyé : mardi 13 janvier 2004 08:37
> >À : standards-jig at jabber.org
> >Objet : RE: [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
> >
> >
> >Thanks a lot for your very complete answer, it really covers all the
> >questions I asked myself !
> >Now, I will wait for the 19th of January. :)
> >
> >yk
> >
> >Le lun 12/01/2004 à 16:40, CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN a écrit :
> >  
> >
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>I've been involved in a project in 2003 that aimed at providing
> >>VoIP communications between XMPP users and between XMPP and SIP users.
> >>
> >>We used TINS to establish voice calls between XMPP users, and a gateway 
> >>to translate TINS into SIP to establish calls between an XMPP and a SIP
> >>user.
> >>
> >>We had previously (in 2002) implemented a "rough" XMPP voice client
> >>using only jabber:iq:oob,
> >>but we needed to interoperate with SIP user agents.
> >>We decided to go for TINS because we thought it would help us designing
> >>a gateway
> >>to the SIP realm (knowing TINS uses SDPng). 
> >>
> >>The results of the project are mitigated:
> >>
> >>The good point:
> >>
> >>We succeeded in establishing voice calls between two of our XMPP
> >>clients,
> >>between our XMPP client and various SIP user agents, and even between
> >>our XMPP
> >>client and standard phones through a SIP PSTN gateway (Yippee !).
> >>
> >>The bad points:
> >>
> >>1. Using TINS added more complexity to our clients than we thought, for
> >>little
> >>added value compared to the jabber:iq:oob solution (we don't use that
> >>many options). 
> >>
> >>2. Using TINS didn't help us building our gateway: SDPng to SDP mapping
> >>was painful 
> >>enough, and the mapping of all SIP routing/session/transaction/timer
> >>mechanisms to XMPP
> >>was a nightmare (I praise jeremie miller for not having based jabber on
> >>UDP !).
> >>
> >>3. To fully interoperate with the SIP world, and especially with phones,
> >>we realized we
> >>would have to add more and more stanzas to TINS, to the extent that we
> >>would completely 
> >>reinvent SIP (PRACK messages needed for interaction with telephony
> >>gateways are an example).
> >>
> >>4. SIP is by far not mature in all its implementations, and we had to
> >>dedicate our gateway to
> >>our target SIP equipments (DynamicSoft proxy, Alcatel proxy, Lucent PSTN
> >>gateway): an interface
> >>with other equipments may require additional developments, and may be
> >>incompatible with the existing ones.
> >>
> >>5. SDPng is still in its early definition stages. We will be stuck to
> >>the SDPng to SDP mapping for a while ...
> >>
> >>6. A brief study showed us that it would also be a pain to add SIMPLE
> >>support to our gateway.
> >>
> >>So, as far as our project is concerned, we are now considering to drop
> >>TINS and switch to a dual XMPP/SIP
> >>architecture, because we would rather rely on a SIP stack than embed
> >>anything in XMPP to later translate it to SIP.
> >>
> >>Even if the SIP interoperability was not so important to us, I think we
> >>would nevertheless drop TINS and go back to
> >>our jabber:iq:oob solution because it's not worth the complexity it
> >>imposes.
> >>
> >>Now, regarding the SIMPLE interface, I think the way SER did it is the
> >>right way to go: they added a small XMPP module to an 
> >>existing SIMPLE server. Our experience with SIP and XMPP has showed us
> >>that the complexity is more on the SIP side, so if you
> >>can rely on an existing server, it saves us the pain of implementing the
> >>whole "consistency mechanisms" of SIP.
> >>
> >>My two cents on that very tricky subject ...
> >>
> >>David  
> >>     
> >>
> >>-----Message d'origine-----
> >>De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
> >>Envoye : lundi 12 janvier 2004 15:11
> >>A : standards-jig at jabber.org
> >>Objet : [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
> >>
> >>
> >>Hello,
> >>
> >>First, sorry for bothering you with this subject but I didn't found
> >>another mailling list where I can discuss the below points. Excuse me if
> >>it's not the right place.
> >>
> >>I saw that VoIP integration (and more generally Videoconferencing
> >>integration) was heavily discuss during year 2003 among various
> >>Jabber.org hosted mailing list, and even a JEP was published (TINS) to
> >>cover this topic.
> >>
> >>However, is there really any will to develop the Jabber
> >>protocol/framework to answer this matter ?
> >>I mean, the JEP TINS is nearly 1 year old, but is there any ongoing work
> >>on it? If yes, where can I find this information?
> >>
> >>Moreover, is there any attempt to be more interoperable with SIP/SIMPLE
> >>on the Jabber side ? I mean, the only attempt that I'm aware of is the
> >>SER gateway SIMPLE2Jabber.
> >>
> >>Finally, is there a known place where I can find more information on
> >>that topic ?
> >>
> >>Thanks a lot in advance!
> >>
> >>yk
> >>
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> >>    
> >>
> >
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> >  
> >
> 
> 
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