[standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects

Ulrich Staudinger us at die-horde.de
Tue Jan 13 13:53:13 UTC 2004


The community was split into two parts when thinking of conferencing ... 
The p2p camp and the server centric camp. It depends on what you want to 
do with VoIP.

I suggest to go through the thread on the jdev list to get an impression 
what's going on:

the november part of that long thread: 
http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2003-November/017108.html
the december part of that long thread: 
http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2003-December/017307.html

It's a long thread.






Yann Klis wrote:

>Very interesting links.
>But, my main question was more about standardisation in the Jabber
>community for this kind of problem.
>Is the 19th of january mystery about that ?
>
>yk
>
>Le mar 13/01/2004 à 12:05, Ulrich Staudinger a écrit :
>  
>
>>In fact the jabber community even has an AVTaskForce but the whole 
>>discussion went into nirvana sometime ....
>>I experimented with all this stuff in e2 
>>(http://complat.sourceforge.net) and e3 has voice chatting (but only in 
>>a very rudimentary implementation - 
>>http://complat.sourceforge.net/jnlp/index.php ).
>>
>>what i may say, it's not only voip ...
>>
>>CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I am glad you found answers to your questions. I will now wait also for the 19th ... I was not aware that someone else (Ulrich) was working on VoIP over Jabber ...
>>>
>>>David
>>>
>>>-----Message d'origine-----
>>>De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
>>>Envoyé : mardi 13 janvier 2004 08:37
>>>À : standards-jig at jabber.org
>>>Objet : RE: [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks a lot for your very complete answer, it really covers all the
>>>questions I asked myself !
>>>Now, I will wait for the 19th of January. :)
>>>
>>>yk
>>>
>>>Le lun 12/01/2004 à 16:40, CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN a écrit :
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>
>>>>I've been involved in a project in 2003 that aimed at providing
>>>>VoIP communications between XMPP users and between XMPP and SIP users.
>>>>
>>>>We used TINS to establish voice calls between XMPP users, and a gateway 
>>>>to translate TINS into SIP to establish calls between an XMPP and a SIP
>>>>user.
>>>>
>>>>We had previously (in 2002) implemented a "rough" XMPP voice client
>>>>using only jabber:iq:oob,
>>>>but we needed to interoperate with SIP user agents.
>>>>We decided to go for TINS because we thought it would help us designing
>>>>a gateway
>>>>to the SIP realm (knowing TINS uses SDPng). 
>>>>
>>>>The results of the project are mitigated:
>>>>
>>>>The good point:
>>>>
>>>>We succeeded in establishing voice calls between two of our XMPP
>>>>clients,
>>>>between our XMPP client and various SIP user agents, and even between
>>>>our XMPP
>>>>client and standard phones through a SIP PSTN gateway (Yippee !).
>>>>
>>>>The bad points:
>>>>
>>>>1. Using TINS added more complexity to our clients than we thought, for
>>>>little
>>>>added value compared to the jabber:iq:oob solution (we don't use that
>>>>many options). 
>>>>
>>>>2. Using TINS didn't help us building our gateway: SDPng to SDP mapping
>>>>was painful 
>>>>enough, and the mapping of all SIP routing/session/transaction/timer
>>>>mechanisms to XMPP
>>>>was a nightmare (I praise jeremie miller for not having based jabber on
>>>>UDP !).
>>>>
>>>>3. To fully interoperate with the SIP world, and especially with phones,
>>>>we realized we
>>>>would have to add more and more stanzas to TINS, to the extent that we
>>>>would completely 
>>>>reinvent SIP (PRACK messages needed for interaction with telephony
>>>>gateways are an example).
>>>>
>>>>4. SIP is by far not mature in all its implementations, and we had to
>>>>dedicate our gateway to
>>>>our target SIP equipments (DynamicSoft proxy, Alcatel proxy, Lucent PSTN
>>>>gateway): an interface
>>>>with other equipments may require additional developments, and may be
>>>>incompatible with the existing ones.
>>>>
>>>>5. SDPng is still in its early definition stages. We will be stuck to
>>>>the SDPng to SDP mapping for a while ...
>>>>
>>>>6. A brief study showed us that it would also be a pain to add SIMPLE
>>>>support to our gateway.
>>>>
>>>>So, as far as our project is concerned, we are now considering to drop
>>>>TINS and switch to a dual XMPP/SIP
>>>>architecture, because we would rather rely on a SIP stack than embed
>>>>anything in XMPP to later translate it to SIP.
>>>>
>>>>Even if the SIP interoperability was not so important to us, I think we
>>>>would nevertheless drop TINS and go back to
>>>>our jabber:iq:oob solution because it's not worth the complexity it
>>>>imposes.
>>>>
>>>>Now, regarding the SIMPLE interface, I think the way SER did it is the
>>>>right way to go: they added a small XMPP module to an 
>>>>existing SIMPLE server. Our experience with SIP and XMPP has showed us
>>>>that the complexity is more on the SIP side, so if you
>>>>can rely on an existing server, it saves us the pain of implementing the
>>>>whole "consistency mechanisms" of SIP.
>>>>
>>>>My two cents on that very tricky subject ...
>>>>
>>>>David  
>>>>    
>>>>
>>>>-----Message d'origine-----
>>>>De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
>>>>Envoye : lundi 12 janvier 2004 15:11
>>>>A : standards-jig at jabber.org
>>>>Objet : [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hello,
>>>>
>>>>First, sorry for bothering you with this subject but I didn't found
>>>>another mailling list where I can discuss the below points. Excuse me if
>>>>it's not the right place.
>>>>
>>>>I saw that VoIP integration (and more generally Videoconferencing
>>>>integration) was heavily discuss during year 2003 among various
>>>>Jabber.org hosted mailing list, and even a JEP was published (TINS) to
>>>>cover this topic.
>>>>
>>>>However, is there really any will to develop the Jabber
>>>>protocol/framework to answer this matter ?
>>>>I mean, the JEP TINS is nearly 1 year old, but is there any ongoing work
>>>>on it? If yes, where can I find this information?
>>>>
>>>>Moreover, is there any attempt to be more interoperable with SIP/SIMPLE
>>>>on the Jabber side ? I mean, the only attempt that I'm aware of is the
>>>>SER gateway SIMPLE2Jabber.
>>>>
>>>>Finally, is there a known place where I can find more information on
>>>>that topic ?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks a lot in advance!
>>>>
>>>>yk
>>>>
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>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
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>>>      
>>>
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