[standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects

Ulrich Staudinger us at die-horde.de
Tue Jan 20 19:08:44 UTC 2004


Well,

i am happy to be able to point interested people to:
https://www.helixcommunity.org/2003/grants/
http://grants.helixcommunity.org


regards,
Ulrich



Ulrich Staudinger wrote:

> The community was split into two parts when thinking of conferencing 
> ... The p2p camp and the server centric camp. It depends on what you 
> want to do with VoIP.
>
> I suggest to go through the thread on the jdev list to get an 
> impression what's going on:
>
> the november part of that long thread: 
> http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2003-November/017108.html
> the december part of that long thread: 
> http://mailman.jabber.org/pipermail/jdev/2003-December/017307.html
>
> It's a long thread.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yann Klis wrote:
>
>> Very interesting links.
>> But, my main question was more about standardisation in the Jabber
>> community for this kind of problem.
>> Is the 19th of january mystery about that ?
>>
>> yk
>>
>> Le mar 13/01/2004 à 12:05, Ulrich Staudinger a écrit :
>>  
>>
>>> In fact the jabber community even has an AVTaskForce but the whole 
>>> discussion went into nirvana sometime ....
>>> I experimented with all this stuff in e2 
>>> (http://complat.sourceforge.net) and e3 has voice chatting (but only 
>>> in a very rudimentary implementation - 
>>> http://complat.sourceforge.net/jnlp/index.php ).
>>>
>>> what i may say, it's not only voip ...
>>>
>>> CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>> I am glad you found answers to your questions. I will now wait also 
>>>> for the 19th ... I was not aware that someone else (Ulrich) was 
>>>> working on VoIP over Jabber ...
>>>>
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>> De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
>>>> Envoyé : mardi 13 janvier 2004 08:37
>>>> À : standards-jig at jabber.org
>>>> Objet : RE: [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot for your very complete answer, it really covers all the
>>>> questions I asked myself !
>>>> Now, I will wait for the 19th of January. :)
>>>>
>>>> yk
>>>>
>>>> Le lun 12/01/2004 à 16:40, CORVOYSIER David FTRD/DMI/REN a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been involved in a project in 2003 that aimed at providing
>>>>> VoIP communications between XMPP users and between XMPP and SIP 
>>>>> users.
>>>>>
>>>>> We used TINS to establish voice calls between XMPP users, and a 
>>>>> gateway to translate TINS into SIP to establish calls between an 
>>>>> XMPP and a SIP
>>>>> user.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had previously (in 2002) implemented a "rough" XMPP voice client
>>>>> using only jabber:iq:oob,
>>>>> but we needed to interoperate with SIP user agents.
>>>>> We decided to go for TINS because we thought it would help us 
>>>>> designing
>>>>> a gateway
>>>>> to the SIP realm (knowing TINS uses SDPng).
>>>>> The results of the project are mitigated:
>>>>>
>>>>> The good point:
>>>>>
>>>>> We succeeded in establishing voice calls between two of our XMPP
>>>>> clients,
>>>>> between our XMPP client and various SIP user agents, and even between
>>>>> our XMPP
>>>>> client and standard phones through a SIP PSTN gateway (Yippee !).
>>>>>
>>>>> The bad points:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Using TINS added more complexity to our clients than we 
>>>>> thought, for
>>>>> little
>>>>> added value compared to the jabber:iq:oob solution (we don't use that
>>>>> many options).
>>>>> 2. Using TINS didn't help us building our gateway: SDPng to SDP 
>>>>> mapping
>>>>> was painful enough, and the mapping of all SIP 
>>>>> routing/session/transaction/timer
>>>>> mechanisms to XMPP
>>>>> was a nightmare (I praise jeremie miller for not having based 
>>>>> jabber on
>>>>> UDP !).
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. To fully interoperate with the SIP world, and especially with 
>>>>> phones,
>>>>> we realized we
>>>>> would have to add more and more stanzas to TINS, to the extent 
>>>>> that we
>>>>> would completely reinvent SIP (PRACK messages needed for 
>>>>> interaction with telephony
>>>>> gateways are an example).
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. SIP is by far not mature in all its implementations, and we had to
>>>>> dedicate our gateway to
>>>>> our target SIP equipments (DynamicSoft proxy, Alcatel proxy, 
>>>>> Lucent PSTN
>>>>> gateway): an interface
>>>>> with other equipments may require additional developments, and may be
>>>>> incompatible with the existing ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. SDPng is still in its early definition stages. We will be stuck to
>>>>> the SDPng to SDP mapping for a while ...
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. A brief study showed us that it would also be a pain to add SIMPLE
>>>>> support to our gateway.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, as far as our project is concerned, we are now considering to 
>>>>> drop
>>>>> TINS and switch to a dual XMPP/SIP
>>>>> architecture, because we would rather rely on a SIP stack than embed
>>>>> anything in XMPP to later translate it to SIP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if the SIP interoperability was not so important to us, I 
>>>>> think we
>>>>> would nevertheless drop TINS and go back to
>>>>> our jabber:iq:oob solution because it's not worth the complexity it
>>>>> imposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, regarding the SIMPLE interface, I think the way SER did it is 
>>>>> the
>>>>> right way to go: they added a small XMPP module to an existing 
>>>>> SIMPLE server. Our experience with SIP and XMPP has showed us
>>>>> that the complexity is more on the SIP side, so if you
>>>>> can rely on an existing server, it saves us the pain of 
>>>>> implementing the
>>>>> whole "consistency mechanisms" of SIP.
>>>>>
>>>>> My two cents on that very tricky subject ...
>>>>>
>>>>> David    
>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>> De : Yann Klis [mailto:yklis at kaliasys.com]
>>>>> Envoye : lundi 12 janvier 2004 15:11
>>>>> A : standards-jig at jabber.org
>>>>> Objet : [standards-jig] TINS and associated subjects
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> First, sorry for bothering you with this subject but I didn't found
>>>>> another mailling list where I can discuss the below points. Excuse 
>>>>> me if
>>>>> it's not the right place.
>>>>>
>>>>> I saw that VoIP integration (and more generally Videoconferencing
>>>>> integration) was heavily discuss during year 2003 among various
>>>>> Jabber.org hosted mailing list, and even a JEP was published 
>>>>> (TINS) to
>>>>> cover this topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, is there really any will to develop the Jabber
>>>>> protocol/framework to answer this matter ?
>>>>> I mean, the JEP TINS is nearly 1 year old, but is there any 
>>>>> ongoing work
>>>>> on it? If yes, where can I find this information?
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover, is there any attempt to be more interoperable with 
>>>>> SIP/SIMPLE
>>>>> on the Jabber side ? I mean, the only attempt that I'm aware of is 
>>>>> the
>>>>> SER gateway SIMPLE2Jabber.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, is there a known place where I can find more information on
>>>>> that topic ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a lot in advance!
>>>>>
>>>>> yk
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>       
>>>>
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