[Standards-JIG] RE: Jingle vs. Zoep

dirk.griffioen@voipster.com dgriffioen at voipster.com
Fri Feb 10 17:07:45 UTC 2006

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

>Hash: SHA1
>Jean-Louis Seguineau wrote:
>>Now for the purpose. Why do we want to negotiate media sessions? Just
>>because it's cool? Because we want to re-invent what Skype has done before?
>>Because we do not like SIP and we want to re-do what SIP is already doing?
>>Because clients' developers want to interoperate with GTalk? [insert your
>>own good reason here]
>Because end users have been asking for it over the last 3 years and
>we've never gotten our act together enough to do something about it?
>>I haven't seen anything but vague hints at the real values that XMPP could
>>derive from enabling media session negotiation. What benefit can the XMPP
>>community derive for this? What benefit can commercial entities supporting
>>XMPP derive from this? 
>>I personally have only partial answers to this, but I entirely agree that
>>asking one self "Does XMPP really need the complex feature set SIP
>>provides?" is an excellent starting point. Jingle in its current form (and
>>under the umbrella of two commercial entities) has given the community the
>>documentation of an existing prototype and the beginning of a return on
>>experience. Is this sufficient for a viable robust protocol definition? 
>Quite possibly not. Life is about iteration. We work on something, and
>maybe it works long-term or maybe it doesn't. 10 years from now people
>will look back on half the stuff we've done and think "sheesh, why did
>they publish that JEP, it was a bunch of crap". But we experiment and
>try things so that someone else can stand on our shoulders in the
>future. I realize that's a vague, philosophical answer, but I don't know
>that I have a better one. :-)
Not really, it has been practice fro quitesome time now :)

Zoep can be seen in this ligth also (which, of course, is stating the 
obvious), but anyway - it was a resonable approach in august 2005. The 
one question that remains is how big is it?

How big is Zoep (or Jingle for that matter), since complexity ususually 
grows out of scale - we only use the SIP stack for what it is, a 
signalling mechanism that handles state; most other things (and I 
probably will touch this in other mails too) are not important to us, 
since they are handled by XMPP or elsewehere in the system, which is not 
in the jep.

So yes, it is a full SIP stack, and you could look at it as doubling 
problems, on the other hand, actual use is about getting things working, 
which means only a subset is in use - maybe I should write something on 


>- --
>Peter Saint-Andre
>Jabber Software Foundation
>Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin)
>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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