[Standards-JIG] Jingle vs. Zoep

dirk.griffioen@voipster.com dgriffioen at voipster.com
Mon Feb 13 23:25:21 UTC 2006


Jean-Louis Seguineau wrote:

>These are very legitimate questions. And we need answers to allow a fair
>assessment of these two technologies. I agree with Peter that in many cases,
>the tunneling of un-trusted data through XMPP is to be avoided.
>
>I would only like to reformulate points 1 and 2 in order for the Zoep team
>to be in position to properly sustain their ground.
>
>1/ SIP include a single authentication mechanism based on HTTP digest (which
>is also the basis of the SASL Digest-MD5 required by XMPP) It is true that
>authentication is not a MUST is the RFC, but I haven't come across any
>service provider that does not require authentication. Due to its
>peer-to-peer origin, authentication can be carried out at a request level,
>meaning that certain request may or may not require authentication. Once
>authenticated, all requests in the same dialog will have to prove previous
>authentication to be allowed. 
>SIP also provides ways for the various proxies on the path of a call
>establishment to require authentication at the request level. In the same
>way as the end to end authentication, all requests flowing through the same
>proxies will have to ascertain their previous authentication.
>
>If we reformulate Peter's question, how does Zoep ensure a proper SIP level
>end to end authentication? On which requests would this authentication
>apply? How does Zoep reconcile the SIP authentication with the XMPP
>authentication?
>
>  
>
If we look at Zoep being a SIP tunnel over XMPP, all authentication is 
done in XMPP. Only the application has access to the SIP stack, the user 
does not: XMPP controls the tunnel between 2 clients. SIP only knows 
about user names, and as matter of fact, they are not important at all; 
the only thing that counts is the SDP and the states the SIP stack is in.

The gateway will be important then, handling the authentication.

>2/ The SIP digest authentication include the possibility to specify a
>'quality of protection' (qop) such as to ensure that the content of the
>request is not modified. This is on way to re-enforce the trust associated
>with the request addresses. 
>
>Reformulating the second question, how does Zoep apply qop on the SIP
>requests? How does Zoep reconcile the SIP qop with the XMPP authorization?
>Does Zoep implements the principles of SIP asserted identity extensions? How
>deos Zoep ensure the proxy path on the SIP side (i.e ensure the requests in
>a dialog always come from the same source  through the same way)
>
>  
>
At the moment we do not. It is not part of the (small) protocol, nor of 
the actual working setup. We deliver our SIP messages at our SIP service 
provider and let it be their responsabilty from then on. This, however, 
we are going to change. At the same time we will have pstn-in traffic 
over a SIP-XMPP gateway. I believe this will be the time we will need to 
take a closer look ...

>I believe that if we cannot get an adequate position on these preliminary
>topics, it would be difficult considering moving to the much more
>interesting question of address handle relationship.
>
>Jean-Louis
>
>P.S. Using SASL ANONYMOUS in XMPP is not safer than doing un-authenticated
>SIP. That said, the so called security gurus should have said that even if
>SIP provides authentication mechanisms, it is definitively easier to ensure
>a good level of confidence with XMPP. 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:27:26 -0700
>From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org>
>Subject: Re: [Standards-JIG] Jingle vs. Zoep
>To: Jabber protocol discussion list <standards-jig at jabber.org>
>Message-ID: <43ECDB0E.2010106 at jabber.org>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>dirk.griffioen at voipster.com wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>And I feel that is the discussion sofar, there has been some good points
>>>on either case - what then is the route? Are they collected and
>>>summarized, upon which a decision is based? This would be a good thing
>>>      
>>>
>
>Back when the JEP Editor (me) decided which JEPs to accept, I was
>completely liberal about accepting proposals because I'm of the "let a
>thousand flowers bloom" philosophy. But we added more process a while
>back and now the Jabber Council decides which proposals to accept. If it
>were up to me I'd probably just say accept the proposal as a JEP, we can
>discuss it more, and may the best protocol win.
>
>That said, I find it a bit frustrating that you have not yet provided
>substantive answers to my questions about authenticated identities,
>validated from addresses, the relationship between XMPP identifiers and
>SIP identifiers, and content validation. To me, these are major security
>issues.
>
>I'll repost the questions here (with updates so that my concerns are clear):
>
>******
>
>1. Authenticated identities. XMPP has them, SIP doesn't. My
>understanding from SIP security gurus is that authentication is OPTIONAL
>in SIP (since it was originally envisioned as a peer-to-peer system, and
>has only more recently been shoehorned into a client-server architecture
>in which clients auth with servers). There are major security concerns
>here with allowing unauthenticated entities onto the network. How does
>Zoep deal with that?
>
>2. Validated from addresses. XMPP has them, SIP doesn't. You can't trust
>the from addresses in SIP, which leads to security problems with
>unauthorized call transfers, deregistrations, etc. How does Zoep deal
>with that?
>
>3. Mixing of XMPP and SIP identifiers. The Zoep spec right now has
>things like <sip:user at host/resource>. What is that? It doesn't look like
>a SIP identifier to me, it looks like an XMPP identifier. (Though the
>SIP URI scheme is so complicated that even SIP gurus cannot easily tell
>whether a SIP URI is valid or not). There are also issues of
>internationalization here (SIP identifiers are US-ASCII only, how are
>our friends in East Asia going to handle that?). In Zoep, what is the
>relationship is between XMPP identifiers and (asserted) SIP identifiers?
>How does anyone know that the SIP identifiers in the Zoep payload have
>anything to do with the XMPP identifiers on the stanzas? Do you just
>pass along the SIP stuff without doing any kind of validation or
>associating the SIP identifier with the XMPP identifier? Since SIP has
>many of the same problems as email in this regard (see #1 and #2 above),
>encapsulating raw SIP in an XMPP wrapper strikes me as similar to
>sending email over XMPP (just encapsulate your email in an XMPP wrapper
>and you get the best of both worlds! but how do we know that the email
>address in the encapsulated From: header bears any relation to the
>'from' attribute of the XMPP stanza?).
>
>4. Content validation. Some very significant adopters of XMPP like the
>technology because it is pure XML and they can validate all the XML that
>flows across the wire using standard XML tools. It is much more
>difficult to parse SIP as it goes over the wire (yes, there are
>SIP-specific firewall products, but they are specialized and expensive).
>So if we send SIP over XMPP, it is quite likely that these adopters will
>not use it.
>
>******
>
>There is also:
>
>5. Use cases. What are the use cases for Zoep? (I agree we need to
>clearly define the use cases for Jingle as well, but it would be helpful
>to define them for Zoep so that we can compare the two in a productive
>fashion.)
>
>Peter
>
>
>  
>

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