[Standards-JIG] FW: Jingle - P2P and PBX calls

Jean-Louis Seguineau jean-louis.seguineau at laposte.net
Thu Jan 5 09:29:33 UTC 2006


Hi, allow me to jump in. 

Having managed PBX for a long time, I believe the assumption that "most
PBX-like features are based off of DTMF" is correct when you have nothing
else. Let's put it another way, you can access PBX features from a voice
only hardware phone using DTMF in most cases...

But you must be aware that all these features rely on the PBX numbering plan
which is defined by the PBX admin. And by nature numbering plans are
different for every implementation. 

This is why interaction with a PBX must be based on a different kind of
interaction. There are a few possible candidates, but DTMF is by experience
not the way to go because it would force you to have access to the PBX
numbering plan from every client.

I also believe that there is still a mis-interpretation of what a GW between
Jingle and other protocol could be. Jingle is a signaling protocol, similar
to SIP or SS7. As such it provides primarily a framework for
establishing/modifying/terminating a media call. Jingle by itself has most
of the features required to allow VOIP (for ex) calls to be placed, tear
down, transferred, etc... A GW for Jingle will be to bridge between
signaling protocols, i.e. between say Jingle/SIP or Jingle/AGI (the Asterisk
commands). 

In the SIP world, to ensure plain interoperability between VOIP phones, the
modification of the call sessions is done using the SDP payload of INVITE
message. Not by using the features built into the media stream itself (RTP
or others). In SDP you can provide indication at the media channel level
(such as mute a channel, make a call one way only, etc...) in addition to
changing the media stream characteristic on the fly. You can also specify
handover or third party call control.

To make Jingle successful we need to have a similar approach and clearly
separate the signaling from the media stream. I am not saying we must use
SDP in Jingle-Audio or any Jingle application to come, but we need to keep
the signaling outside a particular media protocol.

Jean-Louis

-----Original Message-----
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:34:37 -0500
From: "Simon Guindon" <simon.guindon at tomahawk.ca>
Subject: RE: [Standards-JIG] FW: Jingle - P2P and PBX calls
To: "Jabber protocol discussion list" <standards-jig at jabber.org>
Message-ID: <3E6F9E04F4CF864DBCC3EECB90FDFB5029048A at BART>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Right. I think we need a more flexible manner than simply gateway
handling chat msgs and converting them to DTMF though. I think perhaps
an addition to one of the Jingle specs (whichever one it would fall
into, be it Jingle or Jingle Audio) would be cleaner.

As far as I know and any Asterisk/IAX/SIP guys on this list could maybe
correct me if I'm wrong but most PBX-like features are based off of
DTMF. Such as putting someone on hold, transferring the call, or
navigating voice menus and voicemail etc.

To add all these features to Jingle, do we simply just need a way to
send DTMF and all those solutions are now solved?

I'm only familiar with IAX and Asterisk as a client developer and most
of all the things I mentioned work by pressing tones.

Can Jingle support multiple lines? For example in Asterisk I believe I
can have 3 lines associated with my account and I can be in one call,
put them on hold and pickup another call. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks and take care,
Simon

-------------------------------------------------------
Simon Guindon
Tomahawk Technologies Inc.
simon.guindon at tomahawk.ca
www.tomahawk.ca
-------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: standards-jig-bounces at jabber.org
[mailto:standards-jig-bounces at jabber.org] On Behalf Of Nolan Eakins
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:06 PM
To: Jabber protocol discussion list
Subject: Re: [Standards-JIG] FW: Jingle - P2P and PBX calls

Steve Kann wrote:
> One question you addressed below was DTMF support:  Firstly, you're
not 
> strictly correct about IAX:  In IAX, there is only one proper way to 
> transport DTMF, and that is as DTMF IAX frames:  It is not proper to 
> send them in-band as audio tones.  With SIP/RTP, there's several 
> different methods in use;  I don't think jingle-audio defines a 
> signaling path for DTMF; that might be something useful.

My idea for DTMF signals was just to send a chat message that contained 
numbers, pounds, and/or asterisks. If I'm making a call to my land line 
(123-555-1234) to check my answering machine through an XMPP to SIP or 
IAX gateway, 1235551234 at pbx.example.com, and needed to send a DTMF "1", 
I would send a message whose body was a "1". The gateway would handle 
the actual tone generation or whatever the gatewayed protocol used.

So this would look like:
   * Start a jingle call to my land line, 1235551234 at pbx.example.com
   * My land line prompts for a 4 digit DTMF password
   * I send:
       <message to="1235551234 at pbx.example.com">
          <body>2325</body>
       </message>
   * The gateway pbx.example.com generates the tones or gatewayed 
protocol elements corresponding to "2325", my password, and sends them 
along. The gateway may also mix in the tones into the audio stream I 
receive too so I know they were generated.

A side benefit is that if the gatewayed protocol can also send textual 
representations of the menu or prompt, then the gateway can send a 
message that contains the menu or prompt. My client would display this 
in a chat window, and it would be like interacting with a typical bot on

the Jabber network.

I'd leave it up to the client implementors whether they want to include 
a GUI keypad or not. I'd prefer seeing a voice call handled in the same 
window as a chat though.

- Nolan

-- 
SemanticGap: To act as one (TM) -- http://www.semanticgap.com/
Instant awareness & messaging * Online presence design
Cross platform and agile development


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 22:42:20 +0100
From: Alban Crequy <muadda at gmail.com>
Subject: [Standards-JIG] File sharing: JEP30 + JEP96
To: standards-jig at jabber.org
Message-ID: <1ddf9790601041342x3b0685f4s at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi,

Instead of sending files to my contacts, I would like to share some
files and let my contacts download them when they want.

I see this like this:
1/ my contact look for a file in the list of files I'm sharing with
Service Discovery JEP30
2/ my contact choose a file and I send the file with JEP96

So my contacts can download the file when they want (and when I'm
online). It would be easier than using a web server; only my contacts
can download the file. If I often send the same files, I can select
them only one time in my jabber client.

Is there any JEP for this?

--
Alban

http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0030.html
http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0096.html

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:49:00 +0100
From: Maciek Niedzielski <machekku at miroku.uaznia.net>
Subject: Re: [Standards-JIG] File sharing: JEP30 + JEP96
To: Jabber protocol discussion list <standards-jig at jabber.org>
Message-ID: <43BC42CC.3080904 at miroku.uaznia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Alban Crequy wrote:
> Instead of sending files to my contacts, I would like to share some
> files and let my contacts download them when they want.
> 
> I see this like this:
> 1/ my contact look for a file in the list of files I'm sharing with
> Service Discovery JEP30

Or you could use a well-known ad-hoc command which would return a list
of files - this way you don't need to implement any new protocol to get
files.

- --
Maciek
 xmpp:machekku at chrome.pl
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:17:05 -0500
From: Hal Rottenberg <halr9000 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Standards-JIG] File sharing: JEP30 + JEP96
To: Jabber protocol discussion list <standards-jig at jabber.org>
Message-ID:
	<b13a36870601041517y364c9633xcc0d71fa57d635d7 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Actually there is a JEP for this.  It's kinda old, got deferred
because of no activity.  It sounds like it was modeled after IRC's DCC
or FSERV functionality.

http://www.jabber.org/jeps/jep-0135.html



On 1/4/06, Maciek Niedzielski <machekku at miroku.uaznia.net> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Alban Crequy wrote:
> > Instead of sending files to my contacts, I would like to share some
> > files and let my contacts download them when they want.
> >
> > I see this like this:
> > 1/ my contact look for a file in the list of files I'm sharing with
> > Service Discovery JEP30
>
> Or you could use a well-known ad-hoc command which would return a list
> of files - this way you don't need to implement any new protocol to get
> files.
>
> - --
> Maciek
>  xmpp:machekku at chrome.pl
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.1-nr1 (Windows XP)
>
> iD8DBQFDvELM7knNPWzAbeURAmTjAJ0fYq3qDc0sP83zLDh7G3ZkS7+kqwCgnYwy
> LzDtJRuISoFTigks5buML/w=
> =XmEX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>


--
Psi webmaster (http://psi-im.org)
im:hal at jabber.rocks.cc
http://halr9000.com


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:34:02 -0500
From: Hal Rottenberg <halr9000 at gmail.com>
Subject: OT: IBM Developerworks (was:Re: [Standards-JIG] pubsub access
	models)
To: Jabber protocol discussion list <standards-jig at jabber.org>
Message-ID:
	<b13a36870601041534u718f81a4m814c313ca34a265 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This is totally OT, but I have to comment.  What is up with IBM
lately?  I have seen more whitepapers referenced publically (most on
slashdot articles) lately than I can ever remember any other company
having in so short a period.  I think I've seen at least a half dozen
in a week or two.

Whatever is in the water up there is working.


On 12/29/05, Chris Mullins <chris.mullins at coversant.net> wrote:
> [Refactoring PubSub]
>
> While you're in there, you might want to take a quick read through:
> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/ws-pubsub/
>
> This is a Web Service spec for pubsub - it's not a rich as JEP 60, but
> it has some nice simplifications that streamline it quite nicely.
>
> --
> Chris Mullins
>


--
Psi webmaster (http://psi-im.org)
im:hal at jabber.rocks.cc
http://halr9000.com


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:44:30 -0700
From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at jabber.org>
Subject: Re: [Standards-JIG] pubsub access models
To: Jabber protocol discussion list <standards-jig at jabber.org>
Message-ID: <43BC5DDE.7070505 at jabber.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

> On 12/29/05, Chris Mullins <chris.mullins at coversant.net> wrote:
>> [Refactoring PubSub]
>>
>> While you're in there, you might want to take a quick read through:
>> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/specification/ws-pubsub/
>>
>> This is a Web Service spec for pubsub - it's not a rich as JEP 60, but
>> it has some nice simplifications that streamline it quite nicely.

We're in deep trouble if anything starting with WS- is perceived as 
simple and streamlined compared to the XMPP offering. Have you clicked 
through to read all the relevant specs (and their dependencies on SOAP, 
SOAP-Envelope, WS-Addressing, WS-Policy, etc., etc.) or are you basing 
your opinion only on the whitepaper?

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
Jabber Software Foundation
http://www.jabber.org/people/stpeter.shtml
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