[Standards-JIG] proto-JEP: Smart Presence Distribution

Pedro Melo melo at co.sapo.pt
Thu May 18 00:54:03 UTC 2006


On May 18, 2006, at 12:41 AM, Tijl Houtbeckers wrote:

> On Thu, 18 May 2006 01:06:50 +0200, Pedro Melo <melo at co.sapo.pt>  
> wrote:
>> This discussion will now move to the how did the roster got  
>> "incorrect".
> No it won't. Because that doesn't matter.
> I'll explain it one last time before putting this issue to rest.

Well, I'm sorry for that. I don't think we disagree that much on this  

> What the proposal does, is shift who is responsible and in control  
> for handing out presence information to specific users, from me and  
> my server, to someone else and their server. It is not the  
> responsibility of that other server -or even if you think it is,  
> it's still impossible for it!- to verivy or check the integrity of  
> that information.

This is correct, I don't think I never said it wasn't. And yes, I did  
understand that this proposal distributes the task of expanding the  
initial presence through all your roster contacts.

> In the current situation, if you have two servers who adhere to  
> protocol, it's always me who decides who sees my presence. Purely  
> by the addition of what's suggested in this JEP that is simply no  
> longer the case.

No. If everybody plays by the current rules and we add this protocol,  
the same behavior will continue: only people on your roster will get  
your presence, because on the server of your contacts only they will  
have you on their roster.

> Even if all servers involved correctly follow protocol, there is  
> absolutly NO garantuee that someone I do not want to send my  
> presence to will not end up receiving it.

This is only true if someone bypasses the current protocol and adds  
your jid to his roster, correct?

So this would only happen if:
  - that user that wants your presence has direct access to the  
database where the roster information is stored;
  - or the entire server is compromised in terms of security and the  
user can install forwarding rules.

I think that you would agree that if a server follows the current  
XMPP spec in full, a normal user cannot add your JID to his roster,  

> Further more there is no way for me or anyone else to detect this.

this is correct, and I think I never contested this, except stating  
that this would be done out-of-XMPP-spec, by direct access to the  

> Twist and turn all you want, this is (amongst other things) a  
> security issue introduced by this proposal. Thus it should be  
> mentioned in it's documentation.

this is what I don't agree. This protocol does not give you a way for  
a third-party to add your JID to his roster.

You can say, and I would agree with you, that if the roster  
information is compromised on the remote server, then this protocol  
will leak presence information. But this protocol by itself does not  
give any way to do it. Maybe this should be included in the security  
section. It focus that the leak of presence is based on illegal  
roster modification.

That is my point.

> Thankfully, that's not Sapo's reputation at the moment.

I'm glad you like our work.

Best regards,
HIId: Pedro Melo
SMTP: melo at co.sapo.pt
XMPP: pedro.melo at sapo.pt

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