[Standards] XEP-0313: why it is *really* not a good idea to use MAM with Pubsub

Jefry Lagrange jefry.reyes at gmail.com
Wed Jan 6 12:54:10 UTC 2016


Hello,

I think it is a good idea for there to be a search extension for pubsub.

One thing to keep in mind would be is that the extension could become 
really complicated depending on the search fields that you are going to 
have and the type of filter you want. If there are user defined fields, 
then special care should be had not to make the stanza cumbersome.

An idea you can implement for instance, to make it more compact, is to 
use fields defined in other namespaces, so in essence you'd be searching 
a particular XEP namespace (for 
exampleurn:xmpp:jingle:apps:file-transfer:4) and you could reuse to 
fields instead of redefining then. Of course you would still need to 
have user defined fields as I don't think that searching namespaces 
would handle all use cases.

Good luck,

For reference you can have a look at: XEP-055

On 06/01/16 07:08, Goffi wrote:
> G'day,
>
> MAM is a great tool which solves several problems for messages management. It
> also offers the ability to get items from a PubSub node when the "node"
> attribute is used.
>
> We have implemented this feature in our PubSub/PEP component, and I haven't
> seen any other implementation for PubSub so far (if you know any, please tell
> me).
>
> But I have to say that MAM is really badly adapted to PubSub, here are the
> major reasons:
>
> - All items a returned in separate <message> stanza, wrapped in a <forwarded>
> element, one item per stanza. This both is a waste of bandwidth and make the
> task more difficult for the client as it must track each <message> and the <iq>
> result to known when a page has been received. A simple <iq> query like for a
> PubSub items retrieval would be much more better.
>
> - Requests are made on one node. But it is desirable to be able to do requests
> on several nodes, or on nodes which match a pattern. For instance, in XEP-0277
> comments node are in the form
> "urn:xmpp:microblog:0:comments/dd88c9bc58886fce0049ed050df0c5f2" and it would
> be usefull to request all items from a node starting with
> "urn:xmpp:microblog:0:comments". With MAM I can't request all comments
> published by Romeo.
>
> - this one could be easily fixed, but currently we can't do filtering on PEP
> without requesting a particular jid. With microblog, we want to be able to
> request e.g. all items with the category/tag "XMPP" regardless of the author.
>
> - There is no way when a service offer MAM both for message and PubSub (e.g.: a
> MUC component with PubSub abilities (MUC 2 ?), or the server itself when it
> offers PEP) to know if the filtering fields apply to messages, or PubSub, or
> both.
> Look at section 4.1.5 "Retrieving form fields", how can I know if
> "urn:example:xmpp:free-text-search" can be used for PubSub or not?
>
> - section 4.2 says that "The archive results MUST be sorted in chronological
> order", that totally make sense for message archives, but in the case of
> PubSub this is incoherent with the classic items retrieval ordering (most
> recent item first), and we may want to sort on other fields than publication
> date: for instance item updating date vs publishing date, or size of files
> tracked with pubsub.
> Of course we can reverse order easily with RSM, but though it's not natural,
> and we can't sort on other fields.
>
> - overall, PubSub already manages archives by design, but it is lacking a good
> searching tool. Even if it is tempting to use MAM with PubSub because we can
> have filtering "for free", I really think it is not adapted at all, and PubSub
> deserve a real dedicated searching/filtering tool.
>
> If other people are interested, I would like to work on a "PubSub searching"
> protoXEP. PubSub will probably be the core of many major features in XMPP in
> the future, so we need a good, generic, and extendable way to search/filter
> items.
>
> Regards
> Goffi
>
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