[Standards] Council Minutes 2019-12-11

Tedd Sterr teddsterr at outlook.com
Wed Dec 18 15:51:54 UTC 2019


Jonas will be unable to chair again; Dave is only too happy to take up the role.

1) Roll Call
Present: Zash, Georg, Jonas, Dave, Daniel

2) Agenda Bashing
Nobody has anything else to add.

3) Resurrection of Reactions
Kev is hoping to have replied to feedback on this by the end of the afternoon; remains convinced that Reactions are better done in the scope of something like Fastening.
Zash suggests that the authors of both Reactions and Fastening might work together to work this out - a similar thing was done with Message Forwarding and Carbons.
Dave would be happy to accept Reactions as-is, if the Fastening issues could be solved as a priority; is concerned that, as with other Experimental XEPs, such agreements have been ignored and the authors stubbornly refuse change having already gained tacit approval. Kev thinks it has already been shown that accepting for expediency and expecting significant change often leads to disappointment.
Zash says that an XEP not having a number doesn't appear to be stopping anyone from implementing. Kev suggests that if not having a number indicates not being endorsed, then having a number leads to people interpreting that as endorsement, despite the warning in Experimental XEPs. Daniel thinks endorsement should come with Draft - Kev agrees, but it doesn't in reality.
Kev is coming around to the idea of a pre-experimental stage, where it doesn't get a number, but is at least under IPR - Daniel thinks that is what Experimental should be (make experimental 'anything goes' and move things to Draft that belong in Draft.)
Kev believes that Reactions should be worked on until it's ready, and simply avoid the issue - takes the blame for stalling Fastening.

Dave doesn't think this is leading anywhere; Kev is replying to emails on the list, so unless that doesn't lead to further improvement, Dave will honour the previous Council's decision. Kev suggests Council apply pressure if he misses something again - he does care about this.

4) Outstanding Votes
[One each for Georg and Zash on Reactions - expiring next week.]

5) Date of Next
2019-12-18 1600 UTC

6) AOB
Daniel suggests having a discussion on process - Kev agrees; Dave thinks this should happen, but on-list, as Baord is required to give approval.

Kev would like to discuss Fastening and MAM - Dave thinks some form of Inbox is also worth considering; ESL's model [1] is a reasonable start, and will similarly need to understand concepts of Fastening and other ancillary messages.

Kev agrees that the Fastening/MAM story needs to be told; there has been some suggestion that Fastening won't be usable until MAM3 has been specified - wonders how strongly people hold that view. Secondly, a rough story that came out of the Summit is to get the messages either independently or with metadata, possibly with summaries of the metadata - are people still on-board with this, or do they have more input? Thirdly, Inbox is wanted, but would like to put that off for now.
Daniel needs to be convinced that Fastening will actually work with MAM and it won't have to be rewritten later.
Dave disagrees with the first point - agrees it urgently needs solving, but will be useless without Fastening; would appreciate more concrete ideas around the second point on the mailing list; also has a vested interest in Inbox.

Kev is hoping to get Fastening 'done' and then move onto MAM2/3/4, and hoping somebody else will sort out Inbox using the same mechanism.
Dave says one problem with Inbox is that it needs an understanding of message receipts, so consensus is needed on whether that means Message Receipts, Chat Markers, or something new. Kev says there are many problems to be solved with Inbox - several come with Fastening and enhanced archiving, and some are additional. Georg adds that Chat States come into play, which should be moved from Message to Presence semantics.

Dave will commit to resurrecting Inbox talks.

7) Close
Thank you all.

Kev thinks Jonas's ping to join for relevant discussion was useful; Dave agrees this is a plan worth repeating.

[1] https://mongooseim.readthedocs.io/en/latest/modules/mod_inbox/

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