Removing the XSF presence on Twitter/X
Good day everyone, The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that. Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in. Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in. We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day. I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached. I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom. Regards, Mathieu [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it... [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech... [6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru... [7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo [8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no... [9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham... [10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o [11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
There was some support last year for not disrupting things in a knee-jerk reaction, and the conclusion was to "wait and see". I think all we've seen is more reason to leave. I remain of the opinion that the value of being on that platform has been small or negative for quite some time, and has been decreasing for years. I won't be sad to see the XSF leave it. As pointed out in the chat, I think there are many reasons to leave, and I think these days anyone would struggle to find a reason to remain. Regards, Matthew
+1 to leaving X for all of the reasons you cited On Fri, Jan 24, 2025, 1:36 AM Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested
that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did
allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
There was some support last year for not disrupting things in a knee-jerk reaction, and the conclusion was to "wait and see". I think all we've seen is more reason to leave.
I remain of the opinion that the value of being on that platform has been small or negative for quite some time, and has been decreasing for years. I won't be sad to see the XSF leave it. As pointed out in the chat, I think there are many reasons to leave, and I think these days anyone would struggle to find a reason to remain.
Regards, Matthew
Also +1 for leaving X. I agree that we do not need a member vote here. I think it still would be good to explore Bluesky. Many people are leaving X in favor of Bluesky. Alex ------ Originalnachricht ------ Von "Arc Riley" <arcriley@gmail.com> An "XSF Members" <members@xmpp.org> Cc "Mathieu Pasquet" <mathieui@mathieui.net> Datum 24.01.2025 16:31:25 Betreff [Members] Re: Removing the XSF presence on Twitter/X
+1 to leaving X for all of the reasons you cited
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025, 1:36 AM Matthew Wild <mwild1@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been
suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it
did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
There was some support last year for not disrupting things in a knee-jerk reaction, and the conclusion was to "wait and see". I think all we've seen is more reason to leave.
I remain of the opinion that the value of being on that platform has been small or negative for quite some time, and has been decreasing for years. I won't be sad to see the XSF leave it. As pointed out in the chat, I think there are many reasons to leave, and I think these days anyone would struggle to find a reason to remain.
Regards, Matthew
First, the boring bits: I don't think this needs a vote at all - though if it gets one, it's binding. Outside of a vote taking it out of their hands, it's a decision for the comms team. Second, my opinion as Board Member: For me, it comes down to cost/benefit. The-social-network-formally-known-as-Twitter has always had the not-insignificant cost, for the XSF, of being a closed platform that we don't support, condone, or promote anyway. Yet we've been on it, as an organisation, for years, because it was a useful mode of outreach. If this outreach has dropped significantly - or indeed if we no longer have the data to know - then its utility is at an end. But I would also not rush into ditching it without having a replacement outreach in place - and I'd love to see that being one or more gateways from something we do want to support, condone, and promote. (Mattermost? Movim?). As for Musk's behaviour, this also pushes a thumb on the side of the scales marked "cost". I don't think the XSF particularly needs a public opinion on whether he was deliberately mimicking a Nazi salute - the decrease in the utility of the platform is quite enough reason. There's plenty of places banning links to the platform, now, and these things mean that actively engaging on the platform has significant downsides. However, that all said, we should shutter, not close, the account to avoid anyone else from obtaining the name - and if the platform is actually useful to us, we should continue to use it. So first and foremost, I'd like to hear from the Comms Team operating the account, and I'd support a Board-level vote to act as an umbrella for any political fallout from this - though as I note, this is not a political decision but one based on utility alone, even if politics almost certainly has had an effect on utility. Third, my personal opinion: So, you'll note I'm being cautious of stating my opinion in terms of how I think the XSF should act. You may from that be drawing the conclusion that I am some kind of Musk fanboi. I shall now disabuse you of this notion - but still, in general terms I do try to keep my personal opinions away from what I think the XSF should do. I always thought Musk was a twat, and have long refused to consider one of his products for that reason alone, but he really seems to have gone off the deep end now. Either he's accidentally managed a Nazi salute, in the style of Hitler at a rally, or he's done so deliberately - either way he's avoiding apologising, and making it clear that's not what he meant, and condemning Nazism. Instead he's smirking and being "edgy". What a fucking pillock. Dave. On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in. We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom.
Regards, Mathieu
[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it... [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech... [6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru... [7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo [8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no... [9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham... [10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o [11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
I fully agree to all of this. I'd prefer for the XSF to postpone the political discussion as long as possible (not very optimistic how long that will be, open technology is becoming more political fast). Fortunately we don't need the political discussion right now: the platform degraded so much that the case is clear cut. And feel free to ask my personal opinion if you are in for an hour of ranting... Winfried On 24 January 2025 15:51:55 CET, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:
First, the boring bits:
I don't think this needs a vote at all - though if it gets one, it's binding. Outside of a vote taking it out of their hands, it's a decision for the comms team.
Second, my opinion as Board Member:
For me, it comes down to cost/benefit. The-social-network-formally-known-as-Twitter has always had the not-insignificant cost, for the XSF, of being a closed platform that we don't support, condone, or promote anyway. Yet we've been on it, as an organisation, for years, because it was a useful mode of outreach.
If this outreach has dropped significantly - or indeed if we no longer have the data to know - then its utility is at an end.
But I would also not rush into ditching it without having a replacement outreach in place - and I'd love to see that being one or more gateways from something we do want to support, condone, and promote. (Mattermost? Movim?).
As for Musk's behaviour, this also pushes a thumb on the side of the scales marked "cost". I don't think the XSF particularly needs a public opinion on whether he was deliberately mimicking a Nazi salute - the decrease in the utility of the platform is quite enough reason. There's plenty of places banning links to the platform, now, and these things mean that actively engaging on the platform has significant downsides.
However, that all said, we should shutter, not close, the account to avoid anyone else from obtaining the name - and if the platform is actually useful to us, we should continue to use it.
So first and foremost, I'd like to hear from the Comms Team operating the account, and I'd support a Board-level vote to act as an umbrella for any political fallout from this - though as I note, this is not a political decision but one based on utility alone, even if politics almost certainly has had an effect on utility.
Third, my personal opinion:
So, you'll note I'm being cautious of stating my opinion in terms of how I think the XSF should act. You may from that be drawing the conclusion that I am some kind of Musk fanboi. I shall now disabuse you of this notion - but still, in general terms I do try to keep my personal opinions away from what I think the XSF should do.
I always thought Musk was a twat, and have long refused to consider one of his products for that reason alone, but he really seems to have gone off the deep end now. Either he's accidentally managed a Nazi salute, in the style of Hitler at a rally, or he's done so deliberately - either way he's avoiding apologising, and making it clear that's not what he meant, and condemning Nazism. Instead he's smirking and being "edgy". What a fucking pillock.
Dave.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in. We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom.
Regards, Mathieu
[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it... [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech... [6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru... [7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo [8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no... [9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham... [10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o [11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
-- Normally there is some text here, bragging about the new phone and excusing for the brevity. That is insane: if this phone was really that great, I would have sent a decent mail.
Hi, If we don't find utility to post over at X, Mastodon, Threads, BlueSky or whatever the trending thing is, then don't. I'd prefer to spread our message wide and far, and I don't believe that implies validation of or support to the platform, its owners or any other attributes. On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions there, and I'd hate to see that disappear. Just like others here I have strong opinions on the various platforms, their governance and owner structures, so I'm looking forward to further discuss this informally in Brussels. -- Cheers, ralphm On 24/01/2025 16.19, Winfried Tilanus wrote:
I fully agree to all of this.
I'd prefer for the XSF to postpone the political discussion as long as possible (not very optimistic how long that will be, open technology is becoming more political fast). Fortunately we don't need the political discussion right now: the platform degraded so much that the case is clear cut.
And feel free to ask my personal opinion if you are in for an hour of ranting...
Winfried
On 24 January 2025 15:51:55 CET, Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote:
First, the boring bits:
I don't think this needs a vote at all - though if it gets one, it's binding. Outside of a vote taking it out of their hands, it's a decision for the comms team.
Second, my opinion as Board Member:
For me, it comes down to cost/benefit. The-social-network-formally-known-as-Twitter has always had the not-insignificant cost, for the XSF, of being a closed platform that we don't support, condone, or promote anyway. Yet we've been on it, as an organisation, for years, because it was a useful mode of outreach.
If this outreach has dropped significantly - or indeed if we no longer have the data to know - then its utility is at an end.
But I would also not rush into ditching it without having a replacement outreach in place - and I'd love to see that being one or more gateways from something we do want to support, condone, and promote. (Mattermost? Movim?).
As for Musk's behaviour, this also pushes a thumb on the side of the scales marked "cost". I don't think the XSF particularly needs a public opinion on whether he was deliberately mimicking a Nazi salute - the decrease in the utility of the platform is quite enough reason. There's plenty of places banning links to the platform, now, and these things mean that actively engaging on the platform has significant downsides.
However, that all said, we should shutter, not close, the account to avoid anyone else from obtaining the name - and if the platform is actually useful to us, we should continue to use it.
So first and foremost, I'd like to hear from the Comms Team operating the account, and I'd support a Board-level vote to act as an umbrella for any political fallout from this - though as I note, this is not a political decision but one based on utility alone, even if politics almost certainly has had an effect on utility.
Third, my personal opinion:
So, you'll note I'm being cautious of stating my opinion in terms of how I think the XSF should act. You may from that be drawing the conclusion that I am some kind of Musk fanboi. I shall now disabuse you of this notion - but still, in general terms I do try to keep my personal opinions away from what I think the XSF should do.
I always thought Musk was a twat, and have long refused to consider one of his products for that reason alone, but he really seems to have gone off the deep end now. Either he's accidentally managed a Nazi salute, in the style of Hitler at a rally, or he's done so deliberately - either way he's avoiding apologising, and making it clear that's not what he meant, and condemning Nazism. Instead he's smirking and being "edgy". What a fucking pillock.
Dave.
On Fri, 24 Jan 2025 at 09:16, Mathieu Pasquet <mathieui@mathieui.net> wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in. We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am. The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom.
Regards, Mathieu
[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics) [4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it... [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech...
[6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru...
[7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo [8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no... [9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham...
[10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o [11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
-- Normally there is some text here, bragging about the new phone and excusing for the brevity. That is insane: if this phone was really that great, I would have sent a decent mail.
On Freitag, 24. Januar 2025 16:40:59 CET Ralph Meijer wrote:
On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions there, and I'd hate to see that disappear.
I also agree with *not* closing the account, even if only to avoid trivial namesquatting (not sure if and when handles on X are released for reuse). However, when we leave X, that should include removing all links to that account from our website and changing the account's description to indicate that we have moved elsewhere. kind regards, Jonas
Hello, I think we should drop all silos that are incompatible with the XSF's mission of open federated protocols. That means Twitter, LinkedIn*, and YouTube. At least remove them from https://xmpp.org/ * A new reason to drop LinkedIn just appeared: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxevpzy3yko On 1/24/25 10:40 AM, Ralph Meijer wrote:
On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions there, and I'd hate to see that disappear.
They have already disappeared, can you link to one that doesn't require logging in with a twitter account to see? Then it doesn't exist. Another good reason why we should stay off silos so that we don't have future important discussions that disappear. Thanks, moparisthebest
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 at 00:55, Travis Burtrum <travis@burtrum.org> wrote:
Hello,
I think we should drop all silos that are incompatible with the XSF's mission of open federated protocols. That means Twitter, LinkedIn*, and YouTube. At least remove them from https://xmpp.org/
* A new reason to drop LinkedIn just appeared: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxevpzy3yko
I sympathize with this viewpoint, but I don't think it's very pragmatic. Outreach isn't very effective if it only reaches people who agree with us already.
On 1/24/25 10:40 AM, Ralph Meijer wrote:
On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions there, and I'd hate to see that disappear.
They have already disappeared, can you link to one that doesn't require logging in with a twitter account to see? Then it doesn't exist. Another good reason why we should stay off silos so that we don't have future important discussions that disappear.
That argument is dubious, since if "you need to log in" is a gating factor, then email, Mattermost, and indeed XMPP are all problematic. If you mean "an account on a specific silo", then it's simply a restatement of your first argument. Dave.
On 1/25/25 6:22 AM, Dave Cridland wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2025 at 00:55, Travis Burtrum <travis@burtrum.org <mailto:travis@burtrum.org>> wrote:
On 1/24/25 10:40 AM, Ralph Meijer wrote: > On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should > definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions > there, and I'd hate to see that disappear.
They have already disappeared, can you link to one that doesn't require logging in with a twitter account to see? Then it doesn't exist. Another good reason why we should stay off silos so that we don't have future important discussions that disappear.
That argument is dubious, since if "you need to log in" is a gating factor, then email, Mattermost, and indeed XMPP are all problematic. If you mean "an account on a specific silo", then it's simply a restatement of your first argument.
Not at all, email and XMPP don't require any of this nonsense. For example all of these emails are forever https://mail.jabber.org/hyperkitty/list/members@xmpp.org/
Not all use cases of XMPP are federating. We can't exclude non-federating social media based on a reference to the XMPP protocol. Other arguments may apply, but that is a discussion I try to avoid right now because that discussion has very hairy corners. I rather not tackle them when not needed. There are still enough arguments to leave X and reconsider our dependency on other 'social' media. Winfried On 25 January 2025 01:55:26 CET, Travis Burtrum <travis@burtrum.org> wrote:
Hello,
I think we should drop all silos that are incompatible with the XSF's mission of open federated protocols. That means Twitter, LinkedIn*, and YouTube. At least remove them from https://xmpp.org/
* A new reason to drop LinkedIn just appeared: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxevpzy3yko
On 1/24/25 10:40 AM, Ralph Meijer wrote:
On X specifically, if we would decide to stop posting there, we should definitely not close the account. There is a lot of historic discussions there, and I'd hate to see that disappear.
They have already disappeared, can you link to one that doesn't require logging in with a twitter account to see? Then it doesn't exist. Another good reason why we should stay off silos so that we don't have future important discussions that disappear.
Thanks, moparisthebest
-- Normally there is some text here, bragging about the new phone and excusing for the brevity. That is insane: if this phone was really that great, I would have sent a decent mail.
Dear all, no matter what you think about silos etc., it does not matter. The fact that Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, X, Xitter or whatever it will be called tomorrow, doing a Hitlergruß (called Hitler salute in english, sometimes a euphemism "roman salute" is used) in public more than once is enough for any sane human (or reasonable organization) to leave that service. PERIOD. This is just a melting pot for (Neo)Nazis, fascists, racists and so on and we should leave as soon as possible! Best regards, Martin
+1 for leaving X ASAP. On Freitag, 24. Januar 2025 10:16:28 CET Mathieu Pasquet wrote:
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in.
We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am.
The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom.
Regards,
Mathieu
[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat ion-disinformation-propaganda-russia-china-trust-safety/
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig ht
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics)
[4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it self-germans-divided-over-musks-apparent-nazi-salute [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech -b2351923.html
[6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru th/index.html
[7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo
[8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no rmalizes-the-german-far-right_6736904_4.html
[9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham ber-rcna174321
[10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o
[11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
Hi everyone, Thank you, Mathieu, for raising that issue. I fully support your suggestion; we must leave Twitter/X immediately (in fact, we should have done so already). I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. Best, Goffi Le vendredi 24 janvier 2025, 10:16:28 heure normale d’Europe centrale Mathieu Pasquet a écrit :
Good day everyone,
The topic has come up in the xsf@ chatroom, and it has been suggested that we take this topic to the mailing list, so I will be doing just that.
Twitter was never a spotless social network (is there any?), but it did allow at one point somewhat global communication; nowadays it is mostly a far-right echo chamber [1][2], that its owner (a man who is very used to racist dogwhistles [3][4], transphobic discourse [5], and other ways [6] of denying the humanity of a sizeable portion of the world’s population, essentially a 4chan troll, which is quite clear for anyone who has seen him tweet) is using to propel his nazi or nazi-adjacent champions [7][8][9] across the world in the hope that they win elections. My personal opinion is that staying there is not taking a neutral political stance., if that is something the XSF is interested in.
Moreover, and this might be of interest to people all over the political spectrum (in a way that supporting human rights is sadly not anymore), the reach that the platform could allow is simply gone, because all the features and algorithms have been tweaked over the year to promote clashes, insults, and divisive content [10], something I do not believe the XSF wants to engage in.
We are already on mastodon, with much better numbers (and probably more actual people), and if we are not on BlueSky we can either use a bridge to appear there, or open an account there and hope it will also be a decentralized network one day.
I assume this needs a decision by the board or a member vote, so here I am.
The topic came up last year [11] but I do not believe a decision was reached.
I know the topic can be somewhat divisive, but I believe the mailing list can be a better venue to discuss it than the chatroom.
Regards,
Mathieu
[1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/15/elon-musk-twitter-blue-checks-verificat...
[2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/04/elon-musk-x-trump-far-rig...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whistle_(politics)
[4] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/jan/21/the-gesture-speaks-for-it... [5] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/elon-musk-twitter-transgender-hate-speech...
[6] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/17/business/elon-musk-reveals-his-actual-tru...
[7] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1kez8d2dygo
[8] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/01/10/on-x-elon-musk-no...
[9] https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/elon-musk-turned-x-trump-echo-cham...
[10] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1elddq34p7o
[11] https://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2024-03-07#2024-03-07-3bb85c8d4955ac0d
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere.
But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes? I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account. kind regards, Jonas
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account.
Yes. In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable. However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this. I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice. Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not. As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024. Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely. -- ralphm
Hello all, Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as: * a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities. That is not a good step in my opinion. In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote. Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can. Cheers, Eddie 5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer <ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account.
Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
First of all, I would like to thank Eddie for great work done for the communication team. Even though it is not technical, the effort of reaching out to the wider audience is as hard as our main work. (I'd argue that perhaps it's even harder if you're more of a technical person.) I share the similar opinion as emus. This reminds me that the other day somebody asked about the possibility to send the same message across different accounts in `jdev@muc.xmpp.org`. Even though my reply was something like "it is odd for a human to do such thing". We however are not a single humans and our objective for this particular action is clear: "we aim to reach out to people." Follow this objective, if we cherry pick individual platforms for their political agenda, we are no longer taking the neutral political stand. Thus on this side of the argument, I would go further than Twitter and say we should open accounts on all other popular platforms to reach even a wider audience. My finger is pointing at OnlyFans and alike. The alternative action to keep a neutral stand as Eddie have mentioned is if we are going to remove ourselves from Twitter, we should also remove ourselves from every "social media" platforms that we are on currently. And instead, we should post our content only through `xmpp.org` and find other methods to reach out to the wider world if necessary. Either way is fine by me but I disagree removing our Twitter presence alone if we are going to do this at all. ————————————— Trần H. Trung ————————————————— https://trung.fun mailto:work@trung.fun xmpp:trần.h.trung@trung.fun ——————————————————————————— PGP: 272B C112 E0C1 CA52 2987 8E06 4C2E 262F 6514 7810 ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————— On 25/02/10 09:35pm, E.M. wrote:
Hello all,
Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as:
* a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive
I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities.
That is not a good step in my opinion.
In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote.
Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can.
Cheers, Eddie
5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer <ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account.
Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
Dear all, I have been asked to respond with statistics about the Twitter usage. I don't think this is actually matter of the discussion, though here it is: Post date Ref Reposts Likes Seen Any click action Comments 01.01.2024 XMPP Community 1 1 191 11 0 01.01.2024 XMPP Summit 1 2 151 4 0 04.01.2024 Happy Birthday 4 6 291 20 0 04.01.2024 XMPP Events 3 2 244 3 0 10.01.2024 XMPP SUMMIT 26 3 2 385 19 0 11.01.2024 XSF Announcement 5 5 457 24 0 29.01.2024 XSF Announcement 3 6 408 20 0 26.03.2024 XMPP Newsletter 3 6 222 28 0 15.04.2024 XMPP Newsletter 1 5 169 15 0 27.04.2024 XMPP Community 2 2 157 5 0 28.04.2024 XMPP Community 1 3 171 7 0 11.05.2024 XMPP Newsletter 3 6 214 15 0 11.05.2024 XMPP at GSoC 2 3 163 10 0 11.05.2024 XMPP at GSoC 1 3 181 14 2 11.05.2024 XSF Announcement 2 2 197 11 0 06.06.2024 XMPP Newsletter 0 3 147 15 0 06.06.2024 XMPP Community 2 4 303 10 0 06.07.2024 XMPP Newsletter 4 5 275 16 0 06.08.2024 XMPP Newsletter 0 2 116 14 0 06.08.2024 XMPP Community 1 1 144 7 0 08.08.2024 XSF Announcement 2 1 186 9 0 08.08.2024 XMPP Specifications 3 4 236 13 0 09.08.2024 XMPP Community 2 3 201 7 0 05.09.2024 XMPP Newsletter 1 7 189 22 0 05.09.2024 XMPP Specifications 0 3 150 7 0 02.10.2024 XMPP Newsletter 2 3 101 9 0 04.10.2024 XMPP Specifications 4 5 171 21 0 10.10.2024 XMPP Community 1 6 131 8 0 09.11.2024 XSF Announcement 3 5 139 9 0 09.11.2024 XMPP Newsletter 2 3 135 9 0 09.11.2024 XMPP Specifications 2 7 231 17 0
Trần H. Trung <work@trung.fun> hat am 11.02.2025 01:32 CET geschrieben:
First of all, I would like to thank Eddie for great work done for the communication team. Even though it is not technical, the effort of reaching out to the wider audience is as hard as our main work. (I'd argue that perhaps it's even harder if you're more of a technical person.)
I share the similar opinion as emus. This reminds me that the other day somebody asked about the possibility to send the same message across different accounts in `jdev@muc.xmpp.org`. Even though my reply was something like "it is odd for a human to do such thing". We however are not a single humans and our objective for this particular action is clear: "we aim to reach out to people."
Follow this objective, if we cherry pick individual platforms for their political agenda, we are no longer taking the neutral political stand. Thus on this side of the argument, I would go further than Twitter and say we should open accounts on all other popular platforms to reach even a wider audience. My finger is pointing at OnlyFans and alike.
The alternative action to keep a neutral stand as Eddie have mentioned is if we are going to remove ourselves from Twitter, we should also remove ourselves from every "social media" platforms that we are on currently. And instead, we should post our content only through `xmpp.org` and find other methods to reach out to the wider world if necessary.
Either way is fine by me but I disagree removing our Twitter presence alone if we are going to do this at all.
————————————— Trần H. Trung ————————————————— https://trung.fun mailto:work@trung.fun xmpp:trần.h.trung@trung.fun ——————————————————————————— PGP: 272B C112 E0C1 CA52 2987 8E06 4C2E 262F 6514 7810 ———————————————————————————————————————————————————————
On 25/02/10 09:35pm, E.M. wrote:
Hello all,
Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as:
* a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive
I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities.
That is not a good step in my opinion.
In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote.
Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can.
Cheers, Eddie
5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer <ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account.
Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
Sorry seems i sent this privately instead of list for some reason. I apologize. Correct me if I am wrong, but the platforms you mention: - Do not have an owner that is a nazi and does nazi salutes on national television - Have adequate moderation so that conspiracy theories, racism and anti-semetism don't spread. So this argument sounds to me like it misses the point of why people want to leave Twiiter. I urge Trung, Ralph, you and the whole XSF membership really to think on that and also read https://aftermath.site/god-is-a-geek-calvin-robinson-nazi-salute-elon-musk Which says how the entire writing team of a news site quit their job because the owner did also a nazi salute on national television. And reflect why don't we follow the same example and stop associating with platforms and people who are fine with nazis. Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words So I also urge the XMPP membership to consider (and speak up please :) ) about following our own CoC and principles. MSavoritias E.M. kirjoitti 10.2.2025 klo 22.35:
Hello all,
Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as:
* a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive
I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities.
That is not a good step in my opinion.
In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote.
Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can.
Cheers, Eddie
5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer<ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account. Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
I am *not* agaisnt leaving Twitter. For over a years now, the only time I ever hear about Twitter and its' owner is via XSF. I cannot read any content on that platform either. I have no "social media" accounts anywhere, whatsoever. Frankly, I don't care. Life has been much more peaceful this way.
https://aftermath.site/god-is-a-geek-calvin-robinson-nazi-salute-elon-musk
Which says how the entire writing team of a news site quit their job because the owner did also a nazi salute on national television. And reflect why don't we follow the same example and stop associating with platforms and people who are fine with nazis.
I see no revelance to XMPP and the XSF.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the platforms you mention:
- Do not have an owner that is a nazi and does nazi salutes on national television
Has Elon Musk proven to be a nazi? Because of your email, I went to read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk_salute_controversy What a waste of time.
- Have adequate moderation so that conspiracy theories, racism and anti-semetism don't spread.
Yes we have banning mechanism and infrastructure that has been working fine when needed on the federated network.
Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words
Where does it say using Twitter has the same meaning as being a racist? Are the news and the "social media" platforms saying so? I don't read news very much lately. Again, frankly, I don't care. Life has been much more peaceful this way.
So this argument sounds to me like it misses the point of why people want to leave Twiiter.
No, I did not miss the point. You did. ————————————— Trần H. Trung ————————————————— https://trung.fun mailto:work@trung.fun xmpp:trần.h.trung@trung.fun ——————————————————————————— PGP: 272B C112 E0C1 CA52 2987 8E06 4C2E 262F 6514 7810 ——————————————————————————————————————————————————————— On 25/02/12 02:27pm, MSavoritias wrote:
Sorry seems i sent this privately instead of list for some reason. I apologize.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the platforms you mention:
- Do not have an owner that is a nazi and does nazi salutes on national television
- Have adequate moderation so that conspiracy theories, racism and anti-semetism don't spread.
So this argument sounds to me like it misses the point of why people want to leave Twiiter.
I urge Trung, Ralph, you and the whole XSF membership really to think on that and also read
https://aftermath.site/god-is-a-geek-calvin-robinson-nazi-salute-elon-musk
Which says how the entire writing team of a news site quit their job because the owner did also a nazi salute on national television. And reflect why don't we follow the same example and stop associating with platforms and people who are fine with nazis.
Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words
So I also urge the XMPP membership to consider (and speak up please :) ) about following our own CoC and principles.
MSavoritias
E.M. kirjoitti 10.2.2025 klo 22.35:
Hello all,
Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as:
* a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive
I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities.
That is not a good step in my opinion.
In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote.
Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can.
Cheers, Eddie
5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer<ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account. Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
Hi MSavoritias, I have read all you (and others) wrote in the last couple of days on this topic and the CoC in general, and think I understand your point of view. I just have a different perspective and I think it is ok if we do not agree on our world views. The role of the XSF is not to be involved in the societal debate on which people or service are "ok" or "evil" or anything in between. Its role is to facilitate the work on creating open standards for real time communication. Our CoC is about the people acting in our venues (mailing lists, (group) chats, events) and individuals when they are acting as representatives of the XSF (Section 4). It does not apply to anyone or anywhere (physical or virtual) else. I believe that by using X (or any other service), neither the XSF nor I am _therefore_ associated with, or complicit in the actions of, other individuals (owners or participants) therein. I do not appreciate being made suspect or labeled guilty by association. It would also not be acceptable as per the same CoC. Instead, I prefer that the XSF retains it scope and does not change into an organization where everyone is required to agree on all of their (moral) convictions. -- ralphm On 12/02/2025 13.27, MSavoritias wrote:
Sorry seems i sent this privately instead of list for some reason. I apologize.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the platforms you mention:
- Do not have an owner that is a nazi and does nazi salutes on national television
- Have adequate moderation so that conspiracy theories, racism and anti-semetism don't spread.
So this argument sounds to me like it misses the point of why people want to leave Twiiter.
I urge Trung, Ralph, you and the whole XSF membership really to think on that and also read
https://aftermath.site/god-is-a-geek-calvin-robinson-nazi-salute-elon-musk
Which says how the entire writing team of a news site quit their job because the owner did also a nazi salute on national television. And reflect why don't we follow the same example and stop associating with platforms and people who are fine with nazis.
Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words
So I also urge the XMPP membership to consider (and speak up please :) ) about following our own CoC and principles.
MSavoritias
E.M. kirjoitti 10.2.2025 klo 22.35:
Hello all,
Thank ypu for the input. I have been reading the entire discussion and summarized as:
* a majority in this thread advocates to leave the platform for multiple reasons * we should not delete the account due to control and archive
I would like to add that if we leave the platform for political reasons, we will in my opinion also need to abandon the use of for example LinkedIn, Google Summer of Code, GitHub and YouTube. I think such a political position does also not allow other certain activities.
That is not a good step in my opinion.
In the end I will not take the decision here and make this to at least board or a member vote.
Last but not least I also critizise the discussion and tone around this topic. This got worse in recent years and I am very sick of many people not being able to reflect their own behavior, their own media consumption while blaming others where they can.
Cheers, Eddie
5 feb 2025 14:16:15 Ralph Meijer<ralphm@ik.nu>:
On 03/02/2025 17.33, Jonas Schäfer wrote:
On Samstag, 25. Januar 2025 22:07:16 MEZ Goffi wrote:
I'm not even in favor of maintaining an account as the archive can't be consulted without registration. Instead, any tool to dump the archive should be used, and we could display it anywhere. But should we keep it in order to avoid someone else registering the same name and use it for bad purposes?
I am sure we can't control all places where this is linked as the XSF's Twitter account. Yes.
In my opinion, removing past posts from X (whether we keep the account or not to prevent squatting) does not serve a clear purpose. Those who do not want to be there will not look there. I appreciate that people in our community may have stopped using X for whatever reason. Individual posts remain available without logging in, but I agree that not being able to see all of our posts in one view is regrettable.
However, I personally remain a user of X as one of many sources of information and a way to communicate with other users (still) there. Removing past information there (I guess for any account), including its original context and responses, is a significant loss to me. I am sure I am not alone in this.
I have been surprised and disappointed by the labeling of people using certain social networks in this thread. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but that does not mean that others have to agree. If we want to be a truly open organization, this has to include difference of opinion and choice.
Separate from my personal use of X or my private (!) opinion on particular individuals, I do not think the XSF should take a stance in that debate. Staying there does not mean that the XSF, its members, or the XMPP community in general, somehow validates other people's (mis)behavior there. It is not up to the XSF to arbitrate which platforms are "ok" and which are not.
As I said before, if there is utility in letting people in other circles (than those who want nothing to do with X) know about what we do, then we should continue to post on X (too). I personally think there is. If none of the current individual Comms team members want to be part of that, we can figure that out separately. This might also be a good time to point out that we have not posted to X since 9 November 2024.
Just like last week, I will happily discuss my personal opinions over a beverage. Or something else entirely.
-- ralphm
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 at 12:27, MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me> wrote:
Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words
It's certainly intended to be explicitly against both. But to be horribly accurate, it's intention is to be against either being a factor in not being welcoming. Point is it's about actions not labels. Effects, rather than causes. People are biased and prejudiced in all manner of ways, and I certainly include myself there. But we should all strive to be welcoming nonetheless.
So I also urge the XMPP membership to consider (and speak up please :) ) about following our own CoC and principles.
The XSF doesn't use Twitter X in any way that contravenes the CoC, and nor should it. If the site's stated purpose was for racist and/or transphobic remarks, then that would indeed be an issue, but it's not. As I've said before, I'm absolutely fine with ceasing to use the site if we're not getting useful engagement. I'd imagine the most likely reason for not getting useful engagement is Musk right now, but that's a cause, not the effect, and it's the effect we should concentrate on *as an organisation*. Dave.
Dave Cridland kirjoitti 12.2.2025 klo 19.56:
On Wed, 12 Feb 2025 at 12:27, MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me> wrote:
Let me also point out (I become a broken record a bit I know) that our CoC is explicitly against racism and also implicitly against transphobia that Twitter doesn't seem to care about https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0458.html#pick-your-words
It's certainly intended to be explicitly against both. But to be horribly accurate, it's intention is to be against either being a factor in not being welcoming. Point is it's about actions not labels. Effects, rather than causes.
People are biased and prejudiced in all manner of ways, and I certainly include myself there. But we should all strive to be welcoming nonetheless.
So I also urge the XMPP membership to consider (and speak up please :) ) about following our own CoC and principles.
The XSF doesn't use Twitter X in any way that contravenes the CoC, and nor should it.
If the site's stated purpose was for racist and/or transphobic remarks, then that would indeed be an issue, but it's not.
As I've said before, I'm absolutely fine with ceasing to use the site if we're not getting useful engagement. I'd imagine the most likely reason for not getting useful engagement is Musk right now, but that's a cause, not the effect, and it's the effect we should concentrate on *as an organisation*.
Dave.
What I mean here Dave is that: We should all consider how Jewish people in our community, or trans people, or immigrants or black people would feel, and what they would perceive to be the values of XSF as a whole if we were in X and promoting X (by saying people to follow us there, by driving traffic to X, by still being on X and contributing to the network effect). An organization is not only about what it does inside itself, but it is also who it associates with. As an example if I saw FSF being at a Google conference or Microsoft Conference promoting their products I would be wondering if their values have been compromised. To bring it back to XSF if XSF promoted an anti-immigration conference, what would that show as values of XSF? We certainly have the CoC that you drafted that says the values but there seems to be a disconnect here. And I bet the immigrants that would be involved with XSF would think twice about being involved. And we talked about before in the CoC thread. Namely that we have a CoC but there seems to be no kind of consistent enforcement around these values. Now to bring that back to X/Twitter, what values of XSF are reflected here by using Twitter that are written in the CoC? And to bring it to something more actionable: How many people/contributors are we actually pushing away because we don't enforce our CoC? (one of these usages being Twitter) We like to think that posting on Twitter is just an "apolitical" thing, but what values does it reflect outwards to potential contributors? Github that was brought up as an example would be us compromising Free Software and decentralization values for example. *But* we don't have these values as XSF so there is nothing to really compromise there. (to emphasize here: I am not saying we should or shouldn't have these values.) MSavoritias
This looks rather relevant, debian just officially dropped Twitter https://micronews.debian.org/2025/1738154246.html
participants (14)
-
Alexander Gnauck -
Arc Riley -
Dave Cridland -
E.M. -
Goffi -
Jonas Schäfer -
Martin Dosch -
Mathieu Pasquet -
Matthew Wild -
MSavoritias -
Ralph Meijer -
Travis Burtrum -
Trần H. Trung -
Winfried Tilanus