8 Nov
2025
8 Nov
'25
4:59 p.m.
Hi all!
With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings we now
have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and notification settings across
clients on the same account using the <extensions/> element of XEP-0402: PEP
Native Bookmarks.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are synchronized as
roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary extensions for roster items. This would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and immediately allow XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as well.
But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on this
list: would you consider implementing this?
If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be worth to
try to invent some other mechanism that could be deployed faster.
In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most elegant
and simplest solution.
What do you think?
-tmolitor
8 Nov
8 Nov
5:47 p.m.
Hi Thilo,
I haven’t looked into this from a protocol perspective yet, but from a
server developer’s point of view: even if we implemented this tomorrow and
released it in a few months (which is pretty fast in server time), keep in
mind that many server admins update… let’s say… at their own pace.
That means new features often reach only a subset of users at first. This
is not as dramatic as it may sound, as it happens for all new server
features. Usually, it is fine: early adopters naturally gravitate toward
servers that keep up to date anyway. But if your solution requires broad
deployment to really be useful (which might be implied by the fact that
you're explicitly asking for server developer perspectives) it might be
worth considering alternative approaches.
Kind regards,
Guus
On Sat, Nov 8, 2025 at 5:00 PM Thilo Molitor <thilo(a)eightysoft.de> wrote:
Hi all!
With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings
we now
have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and notification settings across
clients on the same account using the <extensions/> element of XEP-0402:
PEP
Native Bookmarks.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are synchronized
as
roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside
the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary extensions for roster items. This
would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and immediately allow
XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as well.
But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on this
list: would you consider implementing this?
If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be worth
to
try to invent some other mechanism that could be deployed faster.
In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most
elegant
and simplest solution.
What do you think?
-tmolitor
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6:50 p.m.
Hi,
Both XEPs are only implemented by one client, so before we go on maybe we should ask if
these XEPs actually solve a problem in a good way.
My opinion on this would be a definitive, no.
Putting a pin element into bookmarks never made much sense, this was pointed out when the
XEP was published, and when i recall the conversation back then, the author was sadly not
aware that bookmarks are only for group chats.
The chat notification XEP is kind of fine, it just misses a place where we can use it. It
feels like it should be part of a bigger spec that defines where to store these kind of
settings.
I would first start with gathering requirements what we would expect from a chat
settings/pinning XEP.
The most important for me would be, I want to set settings for all entities, this means
every JID, independent if they are in my roster or not, or if they identify as group chat
or whatever else.
And i want to get them form a single location, not merge multiple sources into one.
Pubsub would be the logical place for me to implement something like that.
Regards
Philipp
On Sat, Nov 8, 2025, at 16:59, Thilo Molitor wrote:
Hi all!
With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings we now
have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and notification settings across
clients on the same account using the <extensions/> element of XEP-0402: PEP
Native Bookmarks.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are synchronized as
roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary extensions for roster items. This would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and immediately allow XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as well.
But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on this
list: would you consider implementing this?
If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be worth to
try to invent some other mechanism that could be deployed faster.
In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most elegant
and simplest solution.
What do you think?
-tmolitor
_______________________________________________
Standards mailing list -- standards(a)xmpp.org
To unsubscribe send an email to standards-leave(a)xmpp.org
10 Nov
10 Nov
9 a.m.
Hi,
Please note that in the context of my incoming work on reducing metadata
exposure in XMPP (https://nlnet.nl/project/ServerlessXMPP/) I'm planning to
work on roster and pubsub, the main goal being to enable the use of e2ee with
roster data, while also adding extra information without breaking backward
compatibility.
It could be something that fits your use case.
Best,
Goffi
Le samedi 8 novembre 2025, 18:50:28 heure normale d’Europe centrale Philipp
Hörist a écrit :
Hi,
Both XEPs are only implemented by one client, so before we go on maybe we
should
ask if these XEPs actually solve a problem in a good way.
My opinion on this would be a definitive, no.
Putting a pin element into bookmarks never made much sense, this was pointed
out
when the XEP was published, and when i recall the conversation back then,
the author was sadly not aware that bookmarks are only for group chats.
The chat notification XEP is kind of fine, it just misses a place where we can
use
it. It feels like it should be part of a bigger spec that defines where to
store these kind of settings.
I would first start with gathering requirements what we would expect from a
chat
settings/pinning XEP.
The most important for me would be, I want to set settings for all entities,
this
means every JID, independent if they are in my roster or not, or if they
identify as group chat or whatever else.
And i want to get them form a single location, not
merge multiple sources
into one.
Pubsub would be the logical place for me to implement something like that.
Regards
Philipp
On Sat, Nov 8, 2025, at 16:59, Thilo Molitor wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings we
now
> have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and
notification settings across
> clients on the same account using the <extensions/> element of XEP-0402:
PEP
> Native Bookmarks.
>
> Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are synchronized
as
> roster items) lag behind.
>
> I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside
the
> <group/> element to allow arbitrary
extensions for roster items. This
would
> bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and
immediately allow
XEP-0492
> and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as
well.
>
> But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on this
> list: would you consider implementing this?
> If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be worth
to
> try to invent some other mechanism that could be
deployed faster.
>
> In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most
elegant
> and simplest solution.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -tmolitor
5:19 p.m.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats
(that are synchronized
as roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary extensions for roster items. This would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and immediately allow XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as well.
While I have always been team "1:1 items in bookmarks2 is fine" this seems
like a very clean solution here. I don't know that we need an <extensions/>
element per se but a XEP to specify that custom children of roster items
should be preserved would solve the "yet another roster in pep" issue we
seem to keep having.
5:54 p.m.
Hi,
On Sat, Nov 08, 2025 at 04:59:56PM +0100, Thilo Molitor wrote:
Hi all!
With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings we now
have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and notification settings across
clients on the same account using the <extensions/> element of XEP-0402: PEP
Native Bookmarks.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are synchronized as
roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element alongside the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary extensions for roster items. This would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and immediately allow XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as well.
This has the same issue extending the original bookmarks had, that all
current clients will blissfully override the bookmark/roster item
without the extensions element on save.
This is the reason bookmarks2 had to have a namespace bump while it
still wasn’t used that much, to require every client to copy extensions
including those they don’t understand.
So even if all servers were to add support for it, it’s enough for one
client to destroy all previous extensions.
Thus I would recommend to use a different mechanism, for instance
similar to bookmarks2 you could have a PubSub node where the item id is
the JID of the remote entity, and the content is whatever you want to do
in that extension.
But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on this
list: would you consider implementing this?
If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be worth to
try to invent some other mechanism that could be deployed faster.
In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most elegant
and simplest solution.
What do you think?
-tmolitor
_______________________________________________
Standards mailing list -- standards(a)xmpp.org
To unsubscribe send an email to standards-leave(a)xmpp.org
--
Link Mauve
6:38 p.m.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2025 at 16:55, Link Mauve <linkmauve(a)linkmauve.fr> wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, Nov 08, 2025 at 04:59:56PM +0100, Thilo Molitor wrote:
I think we've a little more scope with the roster, since we could have the
client signal that it understands extensions (as a general concept), in
which case it has to copy them etc - and clients that don't either don't
see them at all, or are assumed not to be changing them (or both).
FWIW, I'm pretty sure I remember a discussion about doing all of this for
RFC 6121, but we decided not to for some reason. Or forgot to.
Hi all!
With XEP-0469: Bookmark Pinning and XEP-0492: Chat notification settings
we now
have two XEPs that allow syncing pinning and
notification settings
across
clients on the same account using the
<extensions/> element of XEP-0402:
PEP
Native Bookmarks.
Unfortunately, this now means that normal 1:1 chats (that are
synchronized as
roster items) lag behind.
I'm volunteering to write a XEP adding an <extensions/> element
alongside the
<group/> element to allow arbitrary
extensions for roster items. This
would
bring 1:1 roster items on-par with bookmarks2 and
immediately allow
XEP-0492
and XEP-0469 to be applied to roster items as
well.
This has the same issue extending the original bookmarks had, that all
current clients will blissfully override the bookmark/roster item
without the extensions element on save.
This is the reason bookmarks2 had to have a namespace bump while it
still wasn’t used that much, to require every client to copy extensions
including those they don’t understand.
So even if all servers were to add support for it, it’s enough for one
client to destroy all previous extensions.
Thus I would recommend to use a different mechanism, for instance
similar to bookmarks2 you could have a PubSub node where the item id is
the JID of the remote entity, and the content is whatever you want to do
in that extension.
But before I start I want to ask especially the server developers on
this
list: would you consider implementing this?
If the answer is no or "some day far far in the future", it might be
worth to
try to invent some other mechanism that could be
deployed faster.
In my opinion, however, extending the roster items is by far the most
elegant
and simplest solution.
What do you think?
-tmolitor
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to standards-leave(a)xmpp.org
--
Link Mauve
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3
days old
6 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Dave Cridland -
Goffi -
Guus der Kinderen -
Link Mauve -
Philipp Hörist -
Stephen Paul Weber -
Thilo Molitor