[Foundation] Jabber (tm)

temas temas at box5.net
Tue May 22 19:12:58 CDT 2001

I can completely sympathize with your tone, honestly.  Like you said I'm
a core developer and you know what, I don't have a clue what's going on.
The reason for that has always been that jer started everything, and he
started the server code.  Few of us were really around back then, I was
mostly doing build issues, transports, and cross platform complications.
Jer mostly did the architecting and sculpting.  If he had a larger task
he needed done fast he'd ask one of us to take it on.  Obviously that
doesn't scale =)

So first off, yes we acknowledge it, we hate it, and I honestly do
sympathize with you.  It sucks, I just spent about 1hour ranting with
another guy about similar issues, and I'm a core developer.  So how do
we fixt it?  This is where Jabelin comes into play.  If you haven't read
the last update we're working to form a group that will do server dev.
This will allow people like you that really care about it to get direct
access to CVS and these patches will go in immediately.  We'll have
running task lists (not pussy foot ones, I mean a very direct in your
face list), as well as an overall goal list so we have a defined
direction.  Problem, it's taken us a bit to get this setup because we
want to have those lists as soon as we start, but I think we're about
ready to just get it out there.  So we'll have an announcement tomorrow
or so about a gathering of the people wanting to work on the server and
core components and we're going to set everyone up and get this ball

I'm annoyed, your annoyed, let's do something about it and get this
growing faster and faster, so just hold on for a tiny bit more =)


On 22 May 2001 16:29:49 -0700, Harold E. Gottschalk Jr. wrote:
> temas,
> I have spent many hours reviewing the content of the site to find that it
> provides no leadership on what the state of a project is and who to contact
> to get involved.  A random list of the team members with comments that
> indicate when I have time I may do this or that is insufficient.
> Don't get me wrong I know there is a handful that are doing great work and I
> do not mean to disrespect anyone here! I found the documentation to be good
> and well written and the release server to work out of the box. I have no
> clue on how to get the information of what needs to be done, without going
> around lurking the jdev list or room to get tidbits.
> I spent a good 5 days of my companies time learning the guts of the server
> and reworking the karma code. I then sent it to Keith after shaking the tree
> to see who to send it to) to get it merged, to find that when I grabbed it
> from CVS it was not completely merged, therefore making my changes look
> incomplete, which reflects on me.  I emailed Keith to find out why?  Never
> got a response.  I want to contribute, I have 20 years of development
> experience, I have written many TCP/IP transactional systems in my days.
> Where is the list of things that needs to be done.  You indicate that you
> are the lead server developer of jabber.org and you get paid right, Keith
> gets paid who is backing him up?
> My experience is that in OSS you have a small window of opportunity to hook
> the interested parties into participation.  I am insignificant to the
> longevity of jabber, jabber.org, because right now I am a transitory person,
> I could become a major supporter/contributor or not and just move on to
> support something else.
> I would appreciate knowing where is version 2 going?, What is the vision?
> Please email me or chat with me if I am available.
> I mean no disrespect even though my tone is one of frustration and anguish.
> Sincerely,
> heg
> P.S. a side note Iain 2 months is a long time to wait to see how it shakes
> out.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: members-admin at jabber.org [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org]On
> Behalf Of temas
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 3:38 PM
> To: members at jabber.org
> Subject: RE: [Foundation] Jabber (tm)
> I respectfully disagree.  Yes we're helping with the foundation (mostly
> jer) but a strong group of us are still strongly focussed on
> development.  In all reality I would say that those of us hired by
> Jabber.Com have had more time to focus in on the open source world.
> It's all I spend my day doing, because I have 0 (zero) commercial
> projects I work on.  The actual primary reason for so little core team
> noise is because most of them are moving.  Jer has moved to a new house,
> Keith has moved, and Peter is preparing too.  I guess I'm the only one
> that has really been around for a most of this early summer time.  Also,
> dizzyd has stepped up to help me with Jabelin.  It has taken shape, and
> will soon be spitting out the works.  I've been focussing on docu, dpsm,
> and some other areas.  Transport development has really picked up
> recently, especially by myself and sheath.  I've seen a ton of new
> projects and answered a ton of new emails, so I don't think there is a
> problem with people joining the project.  Jabelin will help organize the
> open source side of development, so watch that more than the foundation
> if you want to develop.  So maybe you're just looking in the wrong spot?
> =)
> --temas
> On 22 May 2001 09:56:23 -0500, Iain Shigeoka wrote:
> > At 07:34 AM 5/22/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> > >I am unsettled not about the name or the name change, but about the lack
> of
> > >leadership that I see here from Jabber.org and for that matter
> Jabber.com.
> > >I know this going to get me in trouble, but then I am sorry.  The
> seperation
> > >of jabber.org from jabber.com has not been easy. I have only been looking
> at
> > >"jabber" for the last 6 months, not a veteran, not a newbie as far
> looking
> > >in, but a newbie as a participant.
> >
> > I'm a newbie myself.  I have been operating under the assumption that most
> > of the leadership "problems" are a result of the transition process ( j.o
> > ---> j.c + j.o) and the fact that Jabber is relatively new and not
> > extremely well established yet.  I think (am hoping) that the Foundation
> is
> > going to be a test of the Jabber community's ability to move past this
> > phase and become productive again.  A test that we will pass!  :)
> >
> >  From my experience with open source projects, there is always a small
> core
> > group that does 80-90% of the work.  j.c probably hired most/all of them
> so
> > they are all now embroiled in trying to survive as a business, create this
> > foundation, and run j.o.  This has really blown the wind out of the Jabber
> > sails for the short term.  For us to move beyond this phase, either the
> j.c
> > crew will have to take up the reins again (something that the foundation
> > may provide a good tool for doing) or a new core group will have to form
> up
> > and start leading.  If neither happens of course, things will die a slow
> > death that I've seen before on open source projects.  ;(
> >
> > For us outsiders, the only thing we can do to help is either support the
> > current core members, or step in and try and fill the gaps, committing to
> > becoming a core member ourselves.  I personally am going to see how the
> > Foundation shakes out first, then try and really get involved within that
> > new framework...  The Jabber naming thing is one of many issues that I
> > think will have to be addressed along the way so it may be a slow
> > process.  I am mentally setting a "I hope/want/need it done by" deadline
> of
> > the JabberCon at the end of the summer to evaluate the situation
> > again...  Until then, I'm giving my 2cents and watching the dog and pony
> > show!  :)
> >
> > -iain
> >
> >
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