[Foundation] Possible Trademark workaround?????

Stephen Lee srlee at sltscommunications.net
Sat Apr 6 21:03:00 CST 2002


Still waiting to hear from Jinc on this they were suppose to post by end
of week but with lawyers involved I assume it got held up. Although
maybe the could comment on your ideas as well!

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: members-admin at jabber.org [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org] On
Behalf Of Howard Ryan
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 4:31 PM
To: members at jabber.org
Subject: [Foundation] Possible Trademark workaround?????


Michael, Org,

Not really wanting to chime in too late, I had a thought.

So, here it goes.

How about the trademark goes to the Jabber.ORG.

When clicked it redirects to a page that has a list of Jabber-based
entities commercial or otherwise who are

included on that page along with a text message from the ORG at the top
with links or whatever.

Make a statute that requires ( encourages, whatever ) Jabber related
sites to have the ORG logo on their site.

Preferably the homepage.

Result:

1). ORG happy.

2). Open Source Flourishes.

3). All goes well there.


Create another application process for those wishing to be on the
redirect page.

www.jabber.org/jabbersites  or whatever.

Each commercial entity would have a logo or their own trademark there.

All commercial entities get exposure from click through as well as equal
opportunity for commercial opportunity.

Give Jabber.com the number 1 spot on the redirect page or simply
alphabetize companies.  No biggie.

Even a special kudos mention for Jabber.com.  Clearly, there should be a
simple work around in order here.

I have monitored these e-mails for sometime and am somewhat surprised a
compromise / solution has not been achieved.

There is so much work to do.

I for one will pass on the furry animals Mike.  :-)

Regards,

Howard Ryan
Co-Founder Jabcast Inc.








-----Original Message-----
From: members-admin at jabber.org [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org]On
Behalf Of Michael Bauer
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 2:53 PM
To: 'members at jabber.org'
Subject: RE: [Foundation] Jabber Usage Guidelines



Hey, baby, you want love, go to alt.sex.furryanimals.com.

B)

OK, I'm going to put an end to my misanthropic behavior.  As has been
pointed out, and I agree, we need to come together, in the true Jabber
(tm) Spirit, to resolve this issue.  There are simply legal business
realities that can't be ignored.  There are simply open source realities
that can't be ignored.  Jabber, Inc. has clearly benefitted from open
source.  Jabber Open Source has clearly benefitted from Jabber, Inc.  We
can either work on negotiating something that will work to everyone's
benefit, even though it might not satisfy purists on each end of the
issue, or we can end up in polarized camps that could result in
something like what's happened with NuSphere/MySQL, something the
doesn't seem to be benefitting anyone in that neck of the open source
woods.  In some way it doesn't matter who owns the trademark, if we
don't come up with a consistent "cultural namespace" for Jabber, we're
not going to optimize the value we can all derive from all things
Jabber.

I shall fight no more, forever.


On Mon, 25 Mar 2002,
Max Metral wrote:

> All I can say is, WHERE HAS ALL THE LOVE GONE?
>
> :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Bauer [mailto:bauer at michaelbauer.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 2:10 PM
> To: members at jabber.org
> Subject: RE: [Foundation] Jabber Usage Guidelines
>
>
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Stephen Lee wrote:
>
> > Michael,
> >
> > Sorry I meant trademark not copyright and I would suggest you 
> > probably knew that if you read my entire email, anyway thanks for 
> > your opinion. Any comments on the rest of my email?
> >
>
> Gee, sorry, no, I didn't realize that you were asking whether you 
> could TRADEMARK a protocol, Steve.  I guess using the word COPYRIGHT 
> threw me. For some reason, reading the rest of your email, asking for 
> the 4th or 5th time whether the Board or Council has met on the 
> trademark issue, didn't seem to clear that up.
>
> You can use your trademark (an adjective) in conjunction with any 
> thing (a
> noun) you want within the class of goods or service for which you have
a
> trademark.  Again, it's about using language in works to describe a
thing,
> not the thing itself that this is all about.  (The thing itself is
> protected by a PATENT).  Aveda, the beauty products company, has
> trademarked far less tangible things, like Attraction, Bliss, and my
> personal favorite, Chakra.  Apparently, you can have neither
Attraction,
> Bliss, or a Chakra in the beauty products field unless it's Aveda's.
>
> Perhaps something more relevant to this discussion would be the SET 
> Protocol, the Secure Electronic Transaction Protocol.  SET is a 
> trademark of a subsidiary (I believe) of MasterCard International.  
> Their guidelines state that you can't use the SET marks in certain 
> instances unless you comply with the SET Protocol.  Again, like 
> copyright, trademarks are relevant to usage of terms in works relevant

> to the thing in question. You may or may not be able to USE the SET 
> Protocol (as in AOL, depends on whether you're blocked in its usage or

> whether you're violating a patent) but you can't CALL something the 
> SET Protocol without MasterCard's permission 
> (http://www.setco.org/download/set_mark.pdf).
>
>
> > Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: members-admin at jabber.org [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Michael Bauer
> > Sent: March 25, 2002 12:37 PM
> > To: members at jabber.org
> > Subject: RE: [Foundation] Jabber Usage Guidelines
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 25 Mar 2002, Stephen Lee wrote:
> >
> > > It would appear to me to be a little premature to be defining a 
> > > set of
> >
> > > guidelines on something that the foundation has not even really 
> > > decided is a protocol or a name. I have seen several discussions 
> > > on this issue with no real definitive reply (although I may have 
> > > missed it). When reading the IETF  draft it states.. "Jabber is a 
> > > set of open, XML-based protocols for which there exist multiple 
> > > implementations". So I would assume that jabber is a protocol. If 
> > > this
> >
> > > is the case than the question arises.. Can you copyright a 
> > > protocol?
> > >
> >
> > This question is non-sensical.  You copyright written works.  You 
> > can copyright a work that describes a protocol.  The document that 
> > defines the HTTP protocol itself 
> > (http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616.html)
> > is
> > copyright 1999 The Internet Society.  The copyright applies to the 
> > document.  Copyright violations are only relevant to the document. 
> > Whether or not you can build systems that use that protocol to 
> > communicate with other systems is a completely separate issue.  You 
> > can be in violation of whole other sets of conventions, such as 
> > unauthorized use of
> > computing facilities (like hacking the AIM protocol to communicate
with
> > AOL IM users) but you're not in violation of a copyright.  Moreover,
the
> >
> > whole discussion is about trademarks, not copyrights.  The question 
> > is whether Jabber is a noun or an adjective.  Trademark conventions 
> > stipulate that a trademark term is to be used as an adjective.  I 
> > was advocating that the Foundation develop a set of guidelines that 
> > conform to trademark
> > conventions regardless of the ownership or licensing of the
trademark
> > from
> > Jabber, Inc.  The point of advocating this was to protect as much of
the
> >
> > traditional definition of brand equity associated with the term 
> > "Jabber"
> >
> > as possible.  I think the point is to define what Jabber describes 
> > and use it accordingly.  If it's a "Communications Platform" then 
> > the statement in
> > question might very well be re-written as:
> >
> > The Jabber Communications Platform is a set of open, XML-based 
> > protocols
> >
> > for which there exist multiple implementations - with or without the

> > little (tm) after Jabber.
> >
> > Then Jabber is new kind of "Communications Platform" for building a 
> > next
> >
> > generation Internet infrastructure.  It builds on a set of XML-based

> > open communications platforms that connect clients and servers in 
> > multiple languages and implementation with one another.  You then 
> > also have the Jabber Clients, and the Jabber Servers, and the Jabber

> > Bots, and the Jabber Protocols.  All of which are using Jabber as an

> > adjective to describe something in the Communications Platform.  
> > What doesn't seem to
> >
> > work in my mind from a branding perspective is to use Jabber as a 
> > noun to describe some "thing".  It all reminds me of the Robin 
> > Williams skit where
> > he's high on cocaine and is playing with his son's Transformer,
saying,
> > "It's a car, it's a robot, it's a car, it's a robot, AIIGGH! "What
the
> > f*** is it?!?!".  Of course, we could always punt on the whole thing
in
> > which case it doesn't really matter if there are any real
guidelines.
> >
> >
> > > I would also think that the foundation should decide the direction

> > > it is going to take on the trademark issue. Regardless of the 
> > > direction Jabber inc., the foundation should have a game plan in 
> > > place for the jabber trademark issue. Has there been a council 
> > > meeting or board meeting to discuss the direction of the 
> > > foundation on this issue?
> > >
> > > I would be more than pleased to work on the guidelines for usage, 
> > > but it would seem to me that we as a foundation should decide the 
> > > direction we are going to take on these open issues first.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: members-admin at jabber.org [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org] 
> > > On Behalf Of Harold E. Gottschalk Jr.
> > > Sent: March 23, 2002 4:36 PM
> > > To: members at jabber.org
> > > Subject: RE: [Foundation] Jabber Usage Guidelines
> > >
> > >
> > > Great Suggestion Michael, Steve Lee would you be willing to 
> > > volunteer to head up a strawman for this? heg
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: members-admin at jabber.org 
> > > > [mailto:members-admin at jabber.org]On
> > > > Behalf Of Michael Bauer
> > > > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 7:19 AM
> > > > To: members at jabber.org
> > > > Subject: [Foundation] Jabber Usage Guidelines
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regardles of the position of Jabber, Inc., I think it might be 
> > > > in the best interest of the Foundation to come up with a set of 
> > > > acceptable use guidelines for using the term Jabber in and of 
> > > > itself.  Brand names are adjectives, so one set of guidelines 
> > > > might be to advocate that people use the term Jabber as a 
> > > > secondary adjective for their primary brand name, like this:
> > > >
> > > > The Persimmon Jabber Server
> > > > The Papaya Jabber Client
> > > >
> > > > Of course, there are a whole set of uses that can be proscribed.

> > > > Traditionally, this even includes font and logos.  Of course, 
> > > > the Foundation isn't going to specify an official font, but it 
> > > > might specify things like if Jabber is going to be used in a 
> > > > stylized
> > font,
> > > > it has to stand alone and can't be distorted, like having the 
> > > > "e" in
> >
> > > > Jabber facing backwards.
> > > >
> > > > It would be interesting to see if there was some way to come up 
> > > > with
> >
> > > > a
> > >
> > > > solution to this problem from the Foundation's perspective.  I 
> > > > think some guidelines would be useful to help insure the brand's
> > integrity.
> > > > Regardless, some kind of independent statement might be useful.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > --
> > > --
> > > > Michael Bauer        me at michaelbauer.com
> > > http://www.michaelbauer.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Members mailing list
> > > > Members at jabber.org http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Members mailing list
> > > Members at jabber.org http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Members mailing list
> > > Members at jabber.org http://mailman.jabber.org/listinfo/members
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Michael Bauer        me at michaelbauer.com
http://www.michaelbauer.com

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