[Summit] getting organized

bear bear42 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 21 11:39:46 CDT 2010

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 09:58, Dave Cridland <dave at cridland.net> wrote:
> On Mon Jun 14 21:49:22 2010, bear wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 16:26, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im>
>> wrote:
>> > <rant>
>> >
> So, for some reason I only see Bear's mails on this.
> At the risk, therefore, of going over old ground, I shall answer this one. I
> was going to locate Peter's original and reply to that, and preferably after
> I knew what Isode's attendence was likely to be - but that's still very
> vague.
>> > - No one wrote up "hats" for MUC 2.0, the Muji spec (XEP-0272) hasn't
>> > been updated, we've stalled out on Domain Name Assertions, etc.
> Right - on the first, it was a classic example of when a few people
> essentially start chatting in public. I have nothing against people tossing
> about radical new ideas, but unless someone's willing to write up a spec
> first, at least as a basis for discussion, I think we should avoid things
> like this. I'm as guilty as everyone else on this, but unless there's a
> stated problem, and ideally candidate solution, in advance, we should exert
> a little self-discipline.
>> > 1. I'd love to see more hacking, interop testing, code sprints, etc.
>> > Who's volunteering?
>> I think we should pick one area for interop so we (me?) can setup a
>> test environment for peeps to target - that way it's focused and folks
>> can come prepared
> If you define one, I can arrange for an Isode person - if one attends,
> things are still up in the air on that - to physically bring along a CA or
> two, and issue certificates. If an Isode person doesn't, I'll arrange for
> this to be done remotely, so we'll have a CA cert or two ready... Assuming,
> of course, anyone wants to do any testing of S2S and/or C2S SASL EXTERNAL.
> I'd also like to see interop testing of SCRAM - I think there's now a few
> server and client implementations, and if there are any that do channel
> binding that'd be awesome to see.
> If there's anything else that people want to test, I'd be interested in
> seeing a list.

Having some certs handy and a CA would be perfect, even if only remote
- that is the kind of thing that will cause interop testing to grind
to a very slow pace as everyone suddenly realizes what is needed.

As soon as we get more than one idea on the interop list i'll post.

>> > 2. Do we want/need some kind of "intro to XMPP" tutorial on the first
>> > day so that we can draw in more new developers?
>> If we do have it, then I think it should be a side-bar or off where
>> someone can focus on them and not a major point of the summit.
>> With the books available now, we should give them that and
>> instructions on how to get online :)
> I think that would be a disaster on several fronts.
> Firstly, I think it's always important to ensure we keep attracting
> developers, so we should be willing to spend a full day on this, both in
> terms of providing introductory talks (and, yes, point out there are books
> and useful online resources, but give them enough to follow what we'll be
> talking about) and in terms of showcasing the shiny toys people can build
> with XMPP. I'd be keen on seeing both finished products - like Collecta and
> so on - as well as research mockups people have done.
> Secondly, it's equally important to ensure that the people making up
> protocols have a solid understanding of how they'll be used, so it's good to
> draw in the wider community and have them showcase interesting ideas for
> that reason, too. It's also very interesting for spec authors to discover
> what the initial questions are of new developers, so we know what needs to
> be clear(er) in the specs we write.
> On the other hand, brushing off new, interested people is going to isolate
> us, and make the XSF rapidly irrelevant. Don't lets go that route.

I understand completely what you are getting at - heck, I wouldn't
have liked being treated that way at first.  I think what I am
worrying about is that if we try to mix interop and the tutorial then
one of the other suffers.  If we are planning on a tutorial then we
need to identify the one or two people that will handle that and get
Peter's slide deck updated.

>> > 3. What pressing issues do people want to solve? Do we need a Summit to
>> > make progress on those issues, or can we do so by other means?
>> Interop and testing - that's my major focus to be honest.
> This is good, and I'd be keen to get that done too. We can actually get a
> lot of that done on the same day as the above, since much of it will be a
> case of setting things up and then making sure it all works.
> I'd note that we need some hardware at the venue to make this portion a
> success, in particular, we'll probably need a network switch and cabling,
> since we're always short on networking.

I can have that equipment available.

> As for other things, I'd be keen to see a solution raised the the issue of
> unknown affiliations - even if that solution is "Don't do that".
> I may have some other researchy/concept stuff to go over - I'm very unlikely
> to be attending myself, but I'll put the details on the list as and when I
> get things done.
>> > I don't like to travel, so I'd prefer not to go to Portland only to
>> > learn that we're not achieving much. Your suggestions are welcome for
>> > making this event a success.
> I think the approach of trying to make these things self-organize is now
> proven to be, at the very least, sub-optimally optimistic.


> I'd greatly appreciate people raising the issues they want to talk about
> well in advance, so the time is well spent - indeed a proper agenda may well
> mean that many people can justify attending.
> As a more vague suggestion, some way of measuring the success of the summit
> might also be interesting, in order to evaluate whether they're working. I
> have few ideas there, though.

This is something that can be done very efficiently at a summit -
working out process issues and preparing for the next Summit.

> Dave.
> --
> Dave Cridland - mailto:dave at cridland.net - xmpp:dwd at dave.cridland.net
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